What is the dislike of biscuit's all about?

[Joshua Dinerstein]

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

[Matt Day]

The main comment you'll get is that they are not structural by any means, they simply help with allignment of the two pieces. The strength still comes from the glue. I use them for allignment quite a bit, and they help to prevent the boards creeping when in the glue up clamps.

[Prashun Patel]

In the articles I read (which all have their controversies) the biscuit is at the lower end of the spectrum, but it does offer moderate improvement over the butt joint.

Ever use a BJoiner? Could anything be easier? Even a Dowelmax takes a little more time than the joiner.

For parts that don't require max strength, there's probably a good argument for using biscuits for ease and speed.

I've read a lot of posts about the theoretical weaknesses of biscuits. But I've never heard from someone who's witnessed a failing of a one of the scads of casegoods made with them. I'm sure you're out there....?

Plus they taste so good with butter and gravy.

[Lee Schierer]

I agree with Matt, that biscuits add little if any strength to most joints. There are exceptions. They do help with alignment, but so do rabbet joints and other means. Biscuits can cause other problems such as occurs when you trim a panel and forget where the biscuits were located and expose one or more. I've also read that sanding a joint with biscuits too soon after glue up can result in biscuit shaped depressions in the board surface when the wood around the biscuit dries to the same moisture level as the rest of the board.

The purists will say they are not acceptable for Heirloom pieces, but then if the old time cabinet makers had been able to get them they probably would have used them.

I prefer my biscuits fresh from the oven with a little butter and honey....

[Jason White]

I've made drawer boxes for shop cabinets using nothing but biscuits (and a dado for the bottom) and they've held up just fine under moderate abuse.

Jason

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

[David Keller NC]

I was reading a review for a book by Norm Abram of New Yankee Workshop fame. One of the reviewers said he could have no respect for anyone who used biscuits in joinery. He was not alone in this tho there were just as many people who seemed to be on the other side of this question.

From watching the show it seems a nice solid way to make a joint when glueing up panels for sides and tops of various projects.

Can anyone explain to me the dislike for this technique? I was planning to use it on a few things I am thinking about trying to make so I am curious as to the pros and cons for this approach.

Thanks,
Joshua

Joshua - the objection to Norm's use of biscuits comes from several different directions. There is the (legitimate) argument that biscuits don't add any strength to an edge-joint when gluing up a panel.

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.

Finally, there is the argument that many of the modern techniques of biscuit joinery, pocket screws, dovetail router jigs and loose tenons are often used as a shortcut to learning how to do the traditional methods of mortise and tenons, handsawn dovetails, and traditional drawer construction. There is some validity to this argument, because it replaces the "workmanship of risk" with the "workmanship of certainty" - while there is some skill required to accomplish a dovetail joint with a Leigh jig, it is not on the same level with learning to layout, saw, and pare the same dovetail joint with hand tools.

In the end, my opinion is simply that the methods should fit the product - if I'm making a step stool for the kitchen out of poplar, I will likely glue and screw it together, and back-fill the screw holes with tapered plugs. And college dorm room bookcases are just fine with screwed butt joints, shelf pins and a polyurethane paint job. On a higher level, modern studio furniture should, in my opinion, have a machine-perfect, smooth surface with no evidence of handplane marks, and perhaps a really nice, catalyzed conversion varnish finish.

But I would never put such a finish on a cherry Connecticut highboy reproduction from 1790.

[Bill White]

Let me answer with this.....
Ya ain't gettin' MY biscuit joiner. Arguments being what they are, I suppose there was a time when some craftsman said, "Why would ANYBODY use one of them new circular saws".
Never had a biscuit joint fail or shift. SO THERE.....(snicker).
Bill

[george wilson]

David said it all. I wouldn't use biscuits on a serious project,myself.

[Paul Ryan]

Let me answer with this.....
Ya ain't gettin' MY biscuit joiner. Arguments being what they are, I suppose there was a time when some craftsman said, "Why would ANYBODY use one of them new circular saws".
Never had a biscuit joint fail or shift. SO THERE.....(snicker).
Bill

I second Bill's feelings. You ain't gettin' my biscuit joiner either. It comes in real handy in many cases and I too have never had a joint fail.

That said, for pieces that need strenght I use mortise and tendons. There is a place for and not for biscuits, it is just another tool in my arsenal. I don't subscribe to the arguments that the purists believe. If a biscuit joiner was around 150 years ago they would have used it for many things. Instead some think it is cheating............... Balony.

[Mike Henderson]

I don't see any advantage to biscuits on edge glue ups, and see the disadvantage of cutting through one because you put it in the wrong place. On edge gluing they don't add any strength compared to the wood-to-wood contact which is stronger than the wood. They do help with alignment but I mostly use cauls if I have alignment problems.

The place where I do use biscuits is on miter joints. They provide additional strength to the miter but you can do them invisible. Splines show.

Like many things in woodwork, they have their place.

Mike

[Dick Sylvan]

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.

So do you use hide glue for all of your reproduction projects? If you do, then only you are going to know. If that makes you feel good, that's great, but to tell others that using modern glues is inappropriate is,IMHO, inappropriate.

[Chris Kennedy]

There is also the fact that Norm makes many "reproductions", and the argument - which I ascribe to, by the way - is that it is inappropriate to make copies of 250 year old furniture with modern glues, screws, dowels, biscuits, sandpaper and polyurethane finishes, because the result screams "Fake" to an educated observer.

I would question what the point of reproduction furniture is -- is it that it matches the aesthetics and design of the period, or that you fool an educated observer? I like certain design styles, and it is exactly that -- the design -- not the method of construction. And of course it's a fake. If it only derives value from its age not its aesthetics, then its value is artificially inflated.

Finally, there is the argument that many of the modern techniques of biscuit joinery, pocket screws, dovetail router jigs and loose tenons are often used as a shortcut to learning how to do the traditional methods of mortise and tenons, handsawn dovetails, and traditional drawer construction. There is some validity to this argument, because it replaces the "workmanship of risk" with the "workmanship of certainty" - while there is some skill required to accomplish a dovetail joint with a Leigh jig, it is not on the same level with learning to layout, saw, and pare the same dovetail joint with hand tools.

David said it all. I wouldn't use biscuits on a serious project,myself.

I have seen this point made several times, and honestly, I find it pretty funny. I'm a mathematician for my day job, and I do a lot of theoretical work. I know how to compute a lot of quantities by hand that most people wouldn't think twice about punching into a calculator. One of the reasons difference engine/calculators/computers were invented was to circumvent this need.

Giving a layman the ability to do something only the seriously trained or educated could do -- 'tis a bit frightening. They might take on airs.

Now, before I get attacked -- I do not intend to devalue ability and craftsmanship. Not in the slightest. I am always impressed by fine craftsmanship, and I spend time in my shop trying to better my abilities. I do it because I enjoy it. But just because there is a machine that makes advanced techniques available to the novice, it isn't a bad thing.

Cheers,

Chris

[Narayan Nayar]

I used my biscuit joiner all the time. Until I got my Domino.

After a few years of sitting in its clamshell, I sold the biscuit joiner.

I think they're great for attaching face frames to carcasses, laminating material, gluing up panels, etc. The Domino is good at all of that as well as joinery.

But as with all tools, people have their likes and dislikes.

[Peter Quinn]

I like biscuits well enough and use them for certain things mostly limited to built in plywood based items. They work great for face frames and miters among other things. These items gain their strength from that to which they will be attached, so biscuits get the job done in my mind. They aren't my go to choice for free standing furniture because they aren't strong enough for the long haul and I take no particular satisfaction from using them. So if the satisfaction of making something plays any significant role in what I am making, then they are out on that basis alone. Seriously, make two marks, push the handle, pull the trigger...this is monkey work. But if something falls in the category of fast-N-dirty, I'll consider them.

To address the first point (biscuits lack strength) for the pseudo scientific nay-sayers that will bash any statements not backed up by scores of engineering studies from some university science department in the mid west...I have glued up test joints in my own humble shop, I have beat the living heck out of them with a hammer, the biscuits are always the first to surrender. The M&T is usually the last, partly because even after you have broken the much of wood and the glue joint there is still a significant mechanical connection. Add a few pegs and you have a joint that doesn't even need glue to survive centuries. Ever heard of a pegged biscuit joint?

If that doesn't convince you, try breaking both a #20 biscuit and a 3/8" X 2 1/4" tenon with your bare hands. You don't need an advanced degree in physics to do this test, so please do try it at home!

[Barry Vabeach]

I make some furniture using hand tools and hide glue - of course I don't use biscuits on those pieces. I am posting to add another great, IMHO, application is end grain butt joints, like the corner or a simple cabinet or box or when attaching shelfs to a bookcase or workshop table , usually plywood. Simple glue won't do anything since it is mostly end grain, a mechanical joint, like a dado or sliding dovetail, would be very strong but fairly time consuming to layout and to cut and fit. Biscuits add some real mechanical strength and take almost no time to layout, cut or assemble.