RAS question - (how much) does size matter?

[Dino Makropoulos]

You mean it has no blade? Because if it has a blade, it is not entirely safe. The only aspect of a RAS I find unsafe is the nut that connects the handle to the floor. When that gets loose things can get ugly. If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Glad you found a solution that works for your needs, sorry you never realized your dream of owning a 24" cross cut RAS. It is a thing of beauty I can tell you. Set a few stops, quickly cross cut an entire lift of lumber or plywood to length. I think the only thing better is perhaps a jump saw?

At the risk...

Peter,
As you know, Sears/Emerson offers $100.00 for removing the motor
and retiring the tool that is the cause of many freaky accidents.
If the maker is offering rewards to stop using their tool,
imagine the cost of liability and the quality of life with less than 10 digits.

You may have the right training, luck, ability, knowledge, coordination, good luck, the correct common sense and the perfection needed to operate
one of the most dangerous tools ever made.

If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Peter,
Look at the history of the RAS.
A tool was needed for cross cutting.
Easy to load and remove the wood.
Easy to operate. Easy to build one bridge to support the moving motor,
housing and blade, Easy to sell.
The only problem was that in order to make a flying saw safe, the supports and adjustments had to be super accurate, strong, stable and easy to adjust with few safety features do to almost fully exposed blade.

I bought my first RAS from SEARS 25-28 years ago.
The price was only $400.00
Please, don't tell me that a tool with a complex and demanding engineering
was/is safe to use. Some older industrial quality RAS was much safer than the "Sears/ Emerson" types RAS.
The only problem was $5.000.00 difference.
Imagine the shortcuts that they had to take in order to make the tool affordable to the innocent victims.
When we talk about RAS we have to separate the industrial designed tools from the $400.00 amputators.

[Burt Waddell]

You mean it has no blade? Because if it has a blade, it is not entirely safe. The only aspect of a RAS I find unsafe is the nut that connects the handle to the floor. When that gets loose things can get ugly. If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Glad you found a solution that works for your needs, sorry you never realized your dream of owning a 24" cross cut RAS. It is a thing of beauty I can tell you. Set a few stops, quickly cross cut an entire lift of lumber or plywood to length. I think the only thing better is perhaps a jump saw?

Peter,

I expected you to be familiar with the Inca Radial Arm Saw. It is made in Austria and has a 26" cross cut capacity in its larger configuration. I believe it was imported and sold by Garrett Wade.

Since you are pushing the saw into the wood, the saw on the power bench does not self-feed like most radial saws tend to. I've owned a half dozen or so radials and seriously believe that the power bench is a far better tool. I'd like to see some of the radial arm saw users on this forum have the opportunity to spend a few days with a power bench.

Burt

[Peter Quinn]

Dino, You are kidding me right? A craftsman is barely a RAS and they should pay owners to throw them away. Did I indicate otherwise in some way? I helped my father throw his away and bought him a skill saw. I believe I am on record somewhere here on the creek saying that a GOOD RAS bought new these days will be one of the single most expensive tools in the shop for reasons you mentioned (engineering, build quality, training required to operate and tune one), not some cheap after thought. The used market is the only option for many, and no guarantees there. I have an industrial quality DeWalt in fine order, and the only luck involved in using it safely was its acquisition!

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist. I am far more scared driving to work every day on the road with many people operating large machines called cars with frankly minimal training and often paying even less attention to what they are doing. If you want to put something on rails to make it safer AND quicker, try automobiles. And a novice should be afraid of a RAS, because it simply wont tolerate ignorance. Mine has a sign painted on it that reads "Warning, this tool is dangerous if used incorrectly, remove head from butt before use."

Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!

[Stephen Edwards]

I wish that I could find just the right RAS for particular project. I need the vertical column, the rotating and tilt assembly that's mounted on the trolly. I don't want nor need the saw and the motor.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino, You are kidding me right? A craftsman is barely a RAS and they should pay owners to throw them away. Did I indicate otherwise in some way? I helped my father throw his away and bought him a skill saw. I believe I am on record somewhere here on the creek saying that a GOOD RAS bought new these days will be one of the single most expensive tools in the shop for reasons you mentioned (engineering, build quality, training required to operate and tune one), not some cheap after thought. The used market is the only option for many, and no guarantees there. I have an industrial quality DeWalt in fine order, and the only luck involved in using it safely was its acquisition!

Peter,
I haven't read your old posts and many people may get the wrong idea.
Now, the ( your ) information is updated and correct.
I agree with you here.

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist. I am far more scared driving to work every day on the road with many people operating large machines called cars with frankly minimal training and often paying even less attention to what they are doing. If you want to put something on rails to make it safer AND quicker, try automobiles. And a novice should be afraid of a RAS, because it simply wont tolerate ignorance. Mine has a sign painted on it that reads "Warning, this tool is dangerous if used incorrectly, remove head from butt before use."

I think we agree here given the records and your naming of "after-toughts"
My RAS experience was a horror story.
New to woodworking with a new toy and a three car garage,
reading the instruction and test cutting some 2x's to learn the tool.
Yes, I was learning by using the tool and reading the manual the same time.
( The only problem was that they don't provide a Greek manual.)
I remember that it was Ok. to rotate the head and rip wood.
I even saw a picture of ripping with the RAS somewhere.
That was a very nice feature ,I thought at the time and I don't have to get a TS for my very first project.
I set my RAS for ripping and I rip my first piece with extreme caution.
What I liked about the ripping function of the RAS is that there wasn't a kickback scenario. The blade rotation either pulls the wood or moves the motor "with the blade".

To make the story short, the 2x4 had to be removed
with a hammer from the block wall and my son never knew what removed
a piece of his skull. (luckily, only hair and skin)





Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!

Peter,
Don't put your well and hard earned knowledge in competition.
Let the facts to compete like in a car race.
Even then, luck can be a big part of the outcome.
My facts are different then yours and for you to post that I use
scare tactics to sell my tools is very scary given the facts that
my tools are re-opening up the woodworking classes
in many schools around the world.

Yesterday we had to make few (40 sets) 160 pieces total) of 3x4 Poplar legs for
a work table/ bench . I will post pictures in another thread and we can
"debate, compare" our ways, knowledge and tools with numbers.
Because, the bottom line after all is numeric.

enjoy the weekend.

[Burt Waddell]

Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!

Peter,

There will always be room for debate when the Radial arm saw and a Rail System are involved. First we can agree that neither system it totally safe. Just the fact that the rail is holding the piece being cut in place is an advantage for the EZ setup. The EZ Bench can be constructed to allow unbelievable capacity. In standard form. you can align the wood in up to 48" width for cutting.

The efficiency of the EZ System is also influenced with the saw used. The 10"1/4" gives a cutting capacity of a little over 3".

You're happy with the Radial and I am happy with the EZ. What more could we want.


Burt

[Burt Waddell]

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist.

Peter,

You and Dino can debate this as long as you wish. I just want to add a note in defense of Dino. I've been discussing tools - design, use, modification, etc with Dino for more than four years. When we first began, He was always asking me "Is it safe?" He continued that until he was absolutely sure that I had considered safety before presenting an idea to him. I can assure you that Dino's first concern is for safety.

Burt

[Peter Quinn]

Dino, My first RAS experience was nearly a horror story too. I had snuck into my grandfathers basement shop to get a look at what he was doing. I was 9 years old. He was ripping on a 10" DeWalt RAS with his back to me, the landing of the stairs were I was standing was maybe 15' to the infeed side of the saw? A sticker launched from the saw, passed so close to my face I could feel the breeze, and stuck in the mortar joint of the old rubble foundation. He turned to look and was shocked to see me standing there. Then he got real angry in a way only cranky old Swiss men seem able to and yelled "Can you read boy?" I looked down to see a sign painted in red on the floor where I was standing that said simply "Don't stand here". You won't find me ripping on a RAS, and when asked "Should I get a RAS" my answer is generally very guarded, they just aren't for everyone. Not a great first tool. Some RAS salesman I'd make.

The old system of education, the classes that DeWalt offered, the books that were available, it just doesn't exist anymore. Well some of the books still do. So how does one learn even the basics of adjusting and using a RAS? I read everything I could BEFORE turning on the saw. And all I do is cross cut. Very basic. 11 steps of adjustment that may have to be repeated three times in a circular fashion for a basic first set up. I'd guess your system is EZier?

But for rough cross cutting hardwood, in terms of speed, power and efficiency, a big RAS is nearly unparalleled. Period. I work in a production shop with a 16" DeWalt that cross cuts 28" to a depth of 5 3/8", I set it up, it is used only for rough lumber break down, you will never even come close to keeping up with any trac saw. And five steps down the production line the fine cross cutting will be handled by a euro slider, which is a very quick way to process parts of various dimensions in gross quantities. Of course all of this is irrelevant. Most people don't need that speed or capacity in a small shop. But it is out there.

My point? Bravo to you for setting up shops in schools. Kids should learn to make things in a way that minimizes the harm to them, most teenagers have NO BUSINESS playing with a RAS (I did when I was one, so believe me I speak from experience). In fact, kids should learn to make things period. And bravo to you for designing and selling a very versatile system that works well for many wood workers in many different situations. But I must always resist the insistence I see in yours many EZ disciples posts that the trac saw system is a better way to do every thing for every one in any situation, that every other method is unsafe to the point of playing roulette, and that those that haven't joined are in some way unenlightened. There is no competition between us, numbers are meaningless because I am not selling anything to anyone. I am hoping some day you will send me a free Ez system to shut me up. I love new toys. Till then I'll keep working wood with the old ones I have.

[Stephen Edwards]

I've enjoyed following this thread. I don't have either of the tools involved in this debate, though I did have a RAS years ago that I used for rough cutting to length and to cut framing lumber to finished lengths. It worked well for that. I never tried it for ripping, always have done that with a table saw. If I had room I'd probably have one for rough cutting to lengths. Since I don't, I do that with a circular saw.

Anyway, interesting thread to follow. For sure, I can say that I would NOT want to give up my TS!

[Dino Makropoulos]

A last thought on the RAS and blade spinning tools.

Negative blade rotation
If you try to cut backwards with a circular saw ,
you get the same reaction that you get from the RAS.
The saw tries to walk up to you and some times even fly.

Positive blade rotation
A forward cut with a circular saw is much better because the blade is forcing the materials upwards and against the saw base.

Same with the RAS and the newer cousin, the sliding miter saw.
If you pull the saw out without cutting, place your materials against the fence and cut by pushing the saw against the fence is much safer.
Actually this is what the RS and miter saw makers recommend.

The only problem here is that the blade is forcing the materials upwards and we need to apply downward pressure to the materials to keep them from flying around. (With the circular saw, we have the saw base acting like a clamp and keeping the materials from flying around)
With the RAS and miter saws we need to apply down pressure (to the materials) to counterbalance the forces of the spinning blade.

Good blades cut without much resistance and the cut is safer.
Only light pressure needed when we use good ( new) blades

Bad blades need more downward pressure to counter balance the
upwards forces created by the spinning blade cutting/pushing the materials upwards.

We cut aluminum, pastic, hardwoods and plywood every day.
The materials are under pressure at all times.
Pressured by the guide rail and by a special plate mounted
on the CS for the offcuts.
Similar to big industrial machinery that I had the luck to use for few years.
Equipped with spring loaded pressure plates or feed rollers.

The bottom line is to understand what can go wrong and prevent it from happening. If we visit a machine shop or an industrial woodworking plan, we will see that all equipments are some how equipped with mechanical
devices to balance the forces created by spinning blades and knifes.
Why not in light and DIY woodworking?

In most cases we can make DIY safety devices with extra materials and bolts laying around the shop.

Peter, I know that you know your tools and ways.
This post is for the newcomers to woodworking.
And to me...25 years later.