Thermark sample kit?

[Dee Gallo]

Does anyone know of a vendor who offers a Thermark sample pack of the colors for ceramic/glass? It's a bit expensive to buy the big containers of red, yellow, blue, black and white in order to test the color mixing capabilities. And since they make green, that tells me their yellow and blue will not mix true - similar to temperas I would guess. That's something like $60 x 6 = $360 plus shipping just to run some tests?

Just askin' ~ dee

ps- this is all Steve's fault anyway

[Steve Clarkson]

That's why I only bought BLACK!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!

[Dan Hintz]

Now might be a good time to start experimenting with home-made Cermark

[nancy barry]

Dan! explain please! lots of us do not want to spend so much to try this product. I have asked on numerous occassions that they offer a sample kit of all colors.

Dee, I did have access to ceramark several years ago. The black worked best. I was testing on glass. It was not "interesting "enough to persue... but, times and product have changed...

nancyB

[Dan Hintz]

Dan! explain please! lots of us do not want to spend so much to try this product. I have asked on numerous occassions that they offer a sample kit of all colors.

I have no special recipe, if that's what you're asking, I was suggesting maybe we should try to come up with one... at the very least, we should be able to come up with some laser-safe dyes or pigments that can add some tone to the white. There's nothing magical about the process or the materials, we simply need to find the right chemicals... I would suggest starting with glass-blowing solutions.

Hmmm, maybe I'll futz around on the net later and see what kind of concoctions I can come up with.

[Dee Gallo]

This poses any interesting question: what exactly IS Thermark?

I wonder what would happen if we lasered over ceramic glaze for example? Do we have anyone out there who does ceramics and knows what the make up of glaze is, in relation to a laser beam?

I know you need certain temperatures for different types of glaze and they can get into the 1000's of degrees. What is the temperature of our laser beam?

There are also people who do enamel work who use fusing for decoration. Could we use the glass dust they use?

cheers, dee

[Martin Boekers]

I haven't tried ceramic glaze yet. I guess they make that in opaque colors as well as transparent.

I have often wondered about glass frit also as I believe they make different grades of that and it may work. Any glass artists out there?

It seems what I read about brick the laser viterlizes the clay to turn it to glass. Maybe that's something to explore.

Maybe we ought to start a thread for this as it would be easier to search as we post our results and trials.

Marty

[Dan Hintz]

This poses any interesting question: what exactly IS Thermark?

It's a pretty simple recipe, actually. It's a mixture of fine clay (to absorb the laser energy and heat the mixture... this is burned off in the process), glass frit (which acts as a low-heat bonding agent for the colorant), a pigment (i.e., the colorant), and the carrier (ethanol or water). I figure rather than trying to recreate the recipe exactly from scratch, add some color to the white stuff and go from there.

There are also people who do enamel work who use fusing for decoration. Could we use the glass dust they use?

This was my thinking... or at least combine a portion of those colorants with some Cermark/Thermark.

[Dee Gallo]

I looked up info on low fire overglazes: they fire at cone 6 which is 1828 degrees F. There are also low fire bisque glazes and pencils. They must be made up of the same ingredients Dan mentioned. I would assume the water based variety is something safer for the laser than solvent based, although it's dry when you would fire it. Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?

One small detail about Thermark: I read that it is delicate when applied, can be wiped off easily so be careful handling it. This would probably eliminate the airbrush masking technique I mentioned since you would not be able to cover areas already sprayed without ruining them. Back to Steve's spray one-burn one method.

add some color to the white stuff and go from there. Hmm. If you add pigment to white, you end up with a pastel color. You could not get a pure bright red or blue that way.

~ dee

[Dan Hintz]

I would assume the water based variety is something safer for the laser than solvent based, although it's dry when you would fire it.

Cermark comes mixed with ethanol (the ones that require a HazMat shipping fee), but you don' laser until it has dried.

Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?

Depends heavily upon your wattage and the dwell time, but getting to the required temps won't be a problem.

One small detail about Thermark: I read that it is delicate when applied, can be wiped off easily so be careful handling it. This would probably eliminate the airbrush masking technique I mentioned since you would not be able to cover areas already sprayed without ruining them. Back to Steve's spray one-burn one method.

And here I thought you had already tried this method and were simply more skilled at it I know I can leave a good impression of my fingerprint in the stuff when dried on stainless steel.

add some color to the white stuff and go from there. Hmm. If you add pigment to white, you end up with a pastel color. You could not get a pure bright red or blue that way.

Well, you don't expect me to solve all of the problems at once, do you? It's a starting point and would tell us if we're on the right track.

[Dee Gallo]

And here I thought you had already tried this method and were simply more skilled at it I know I can leave a good impression of my fingerprint in the stuff when dried on stainless steel.

Well, you don't expect me to solve all of the problems at once, do you? It's a starting point and would tell us if we're on the right track.

Dan, I AM more skilled at airbrush, so I wouldn't bother to use a mask - that's how good I am!

Do you have any white CThermark? It would an interesting experiment to add some universal pigment to it. I have pigments and no CThermark other than black. I might be more inclined to buy the yellow, though, as a base. Then you would be able to use yellow, orange, red-orange, mandarin red, green, yellow-green, turquoise, brown, and dark versions of those rather than just pastels.

More work needed!

dee

[Randy Digby]

So...Make your own Cermark...interesting thought.

When I was researching lasers, a salesman at one of the demo sessions said that gun blue would work also. Now at the time, I didn't know what Cermark/Thermark was, so I didn't pursue the idea. I have done a little (very littel) reseach since then and all I can find is liquid cold blue, which I'm almost certain, would not work with staining the base metal. I didn't purchase my laser from that company so I can't use then as a source for info.

Anyone heard of or tried a form of gun blue? Or other substance with any success?

[Phil Garcia]

Yes, I was told the same thing I believe from Epilog, I can not remember exactly who told me since I have slept to many times since then but I do remember someone telling me the samething. However at the time I did not realize the importance of it since I was just trying to remember all the other important details of like how to align the laser, align the table, etc..etc..

[Andrea Weissenseel]

A very intertesting thread I got into this for a quiet a while, but evetually dropped it, since I'm not a chemist

Did you try to contact Thermark directly. I ordered my samples from them and they are selling samll sample kits.

Originally Posted by Dee Gallo
Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?

I don't think that temperature is the problem, since you get glazes which are fired at lower temperatures - IMHO the time temperature is applied is the problem. I talked to a chemical company who are marking colors for painting glass and porcelain and they mixed me some samples that might work - unfortunately it didn't.

Didn't try to mix Thermark colors, because I was told it wouldn't work - I'd rather would mix the different liquids instead of spraying the colors on top of each other. But since I only have black, blue and the bronze/brown/goldish stuff here, it doesn't make too much sense to mix them

Andrea - very excited of the outcome of this thread

[Dave Johnson29]

a salesman at one of the demo sessions said that gun blue would work also.

Hi Randy,

I can't see how the liquid blue would work as that's a chemical reaction with the liquid and the steel. I am pretty sure the laser would just boil off the liquid.

Maybe they were talking about a slurry of bluing salts like Oxynate or something. Even then though, I cannot see how that might work either.

Unless they are talking about bluing the metal then burning away the blue with the laser much like anodized aluminum.