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Thread: Ceramic glaze test - it's NOT cermark!

  1. #46
    This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents.
    Those would be US patents, yes? Because I have to say that if I feel like mixing up some random goop and lasering it, then I will do it. The US patent system and intellectual property stuff is bollixing up things for the entire species. Time was a patent gave the inventor 15 years to make good on their invention; then it got turned over to the general populace. That was reasonable and just. Now it's -what?- 95 years past the inventor's death or some such; thanks to bloody Disney bribing congress to raise the bar every time mickey mouse looks like going into the commons.

    So. Much as I appreciate your position; the fact that somebody -either associated with your company or subsequently bought out by them- did some original thinking doesn't give you the moral right to tell me what I can or cannot laser with my own machine on my own property. Yes, you've devoted time and money producing related products. That puts you ahead of the game, it doesn't buy you the right to stop everybody else from playing.

    "Aha!", I expect you to say, "they are worldwide patents". And the answer is the same. Fold it into sharp corners and use it as a chair. If I were to look at permanent marking materials, glazes would be an obvious place to start. I'm half inclined to give it a go now too...

    For the record, I've never seen a cermark product.
    Also, for the record, you probably picked on the exact wrong group of people to pre-threaten.
    Much of this has to do with obviousness of an invention. The inventors must show that their innovations are new, useful and nonobvious to someone "Skilled in the arts".
    You know you've just blown yourself out of the water there, don't you?
    Last edited by Darren Null; 09-25-2009 at 8:49 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Wooldridge View Post
    For the porcelain and ceramics, yes. I fire them for 3.5 hours at 016 with our special gloss.

    For the marbles and travertines..no. I use a permanent cemetary grade paint.
    Well, that was a complete letdown Your posts suggested you had a multi-color glaze that was a direct (and even improved) replacement for Cermark/Thermark, but what you have listed is no different than what any of us have been doing since the beginning... laser-cut masks and paint.




    I have a long post to make about Steve R's comments, but seeing as how it's past 10 at the moment, I'll reserve my major comments until later this weekend. Suffice it to say for now, a patent does NOT prevent someone from making their own product, and I sincerely hope you weren't suggesting such a thing. A patent is a legal tool that allows one entity to show prior ownership of an idea/invention with the intent to seek restitution (in whatever form that restitution takes). It does not prevent an individual from recreating the invention of his own accord, as that would prevent further innovation... only one claimed item needs to be worked around to make the patent worth little more than the paper it was printed on, and a new patent can be applied for as an improvement upon the old. Such an improvement may be created through our work here, particularly with such a large pool of potential ideas and "experimental labs" around the country. Should that innovation happen here, it becomes public domain, and the original patent has essentially been worked around... something any company should be concerned about, no doubt...



    EDIT: Darren, we're of the same mind... that said, you may want to wait until I've written my full comments this weekend before spinning any of this up. There should be some interesting reading if my mind is working after tomorrow's festivities are over...
    Last edited by Dan Hintz; 09-25-2009 at 10:35 PM.
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  3. #48
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    this thread is a joke. I agree with darren...Oh i just grilled a burger..who do i send the royalties too.

  4. #49
    Diplomacy? I've heard of it.

    I do have issues with the US patent system because it's all getting a bit silly. Not only that, but the US system is spreading it's noxious tentacles throughout the rest of the globe to the detriment of all but a greedy few who much of the time didn't have any input into the creation of the idea in the first place.

    Time was -and any engineer will remember this fondly- you could buy books of linkages and engineering innovations as they entered the commons. Being 15 years out of date wasn't a problem, because there was often a tweak or method that was just the thing that you needed for your own project. No more alas. And the same across pretty well every field of human endeavour- a 15-year-old innovation could be recycled as part of whatever you're working on now...so the entire race moves forward with a 15-year lag to give the innovators a little space to manoever. That was a good system and it worked for everyone. Now, of course, innovation is stifled; the species as a whole loses out and you get parasitical companies who do nothing but sue people for one breach or another for one of the patents in their patent farm. Or -and here things go beyond silly- outfits like the RIAA where words fail me:......

    Woman shares 24 tracks- fined $1.92M
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06..._victory_rich/

    ...versus, for example...

    Company "trading with the enemy"- fined $14,500
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09...ng_with_enemy/

    Here in Spain, we can currently download what music and films we like, because there is a tax on recordable media that gets fed back to the various artists' associations. That'll change, I expect, but it works quite well for the moment.

    Specifically getting back to lasering patents- Cermark. It's obvious. You need a low-temperature glass that you can cure at laser temperatures, plus chemicals in the solution that will reflect vivid colours when subjected to that same treatment. This is obvious to anybody "skilled in the arts"; or indeed anybody who has owned a laser for more than 2 weeks. What those chemicals are; is purely a matter of experimentation...starting with commonly-available glazes and then experimenting with various additives. You need it weatherproof; transparent (to let your colours show); able to stick really well to a surface and proof against staining and cleaning. Pretty well has to be a glaze. I have never seen cermark- it's overpriced for what it is plus from user accounts on here, the results are variable. I'd rather spend my $100 on a sample of every glaze in the shop plus a few compounds that burn black and see what works. I'd expect to end up with a mixture that wouldn't be quite as good as cermark; but that I could buy shedloads of locally for a reasonable price. Claiming that a patent would stop me performing this sort of experimentation is risable.

    I regularly burn denim and other dark cotton clothing in my laser...have done since I bought it and have no intention of stopping anytime soon. I haven't done bricks in a while, but I'm going to do a couple now, just on general principles.

    Here's a clue: if it's cylindrical/has at least one flat surface; is not too reflective; is nonconductive; and doesn't run away (quickly enough) - it goes in the laser.

    Anyone who feels that they have a right to stop me using my laser machine for precisely what I feel like using it for at any given moment is cordially invited to bring it on.

    @Tim- Thanks for sharing. Nice work. Please excuse the lukewarm reception, but a thermark-alike arouses a great deal of interest. And speaking personally, I never knew there was such a thing as cemetary-grade paint.
    Last edited by Darren Null; 09-26-2009 at 9:14 AM.

  5. #50
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    Google "monster audio lawsuit"
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  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodne Gold View Post
    Google "monster audio lawsuit"
    Yep, that one is a a doozie. The RCA connector response is a good one.

    I have a million and one thoughts on intellectual property rights. I also have a million and one thoughts on the failure of many in big business to employ common sense, "evenly keeled" ethics, and the filthy use of corp attorney bullying tactics on those unable or unwilling to defend themselves.
    Last edited by Bob Savage; 09-26-2009 at 11:27 AM.
    CAMaster CR-408 Cobra X3

  7. #52
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    The fact that the Cermark guy popped up here to attempt to protect his patent is a useful warning that patents ***are*** policied by their holders and one should be a bit careful about postings which may contravene an idea or process "owned" by someone else.

    Maybe I'm paranoid, but it could be that you end up on someone's "watch" list and as soon as you start to make any money at it then bingo! a lawyer's letter arrives.


    Incidentally, where was the Cermark guy when the chap was struggling to mark knife blades? Great customer service there!

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Hunter View Post
    Maybe I'm paranoid, but it could be that you end up on someone's "watch" list and as soon as you start to make any money at it then bingo! a lawyer's letter arrives.
    I don't think you're paranoid, I think you understand the reality of the mess we're in here in the U.S. right now. Back to the bullying tactics...

    By the way, many/most of the musical instrument based forums I use require MFG reps to identify themselves. Is that not so here? I noticed the Cermark guy didn't have anything in his sig. Just curious.
    CAMaster CR-408 Cobra X3

  9. #54
    If anybody has too much time on their hands, the Blue Jeans Cable response to Monster Cable is an enjoyable read from the perspective of "the little guy." I'll try to break the link so as not to violate the board TOS.

    WWW DOT audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back
    CAMaster CR-408 Cobra X3

  10. #55
    Well done Dee!
    Again you have dipped your toes in interesting waters, and given them a good stir. I for one will start experimenting along those lines when I get an opportunity.
    I came across this interesting link http://www.dicklehman.com/html/writing/laser.html and it looks like Dick has done some relevant work some years ago with various glazes. If possible I will try to get my hands on some of the glazes he mentions.

    Stephen

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Savage1 View Post
    Hi Martin,



    That's what I thought too.



    What is CLT? I only found info on this for use with laser printers. Are you using a printer?
    Hi Bob,

    CLT is Color laser transfer. I use a Xerox Phaser but many "toner" based printers will work. I use a transfer sheet from Magic Touch. I've tried others but this seems to be the most consistant. I use the "Hard Surface material only as I haven't had much luck with the Textile version. This works on many substrates as well as tile, wood, acrylic, glass, mat board, water (just kidding about water!) This material is versatile and fairly durable. I have done mugs and its fine as long as they are hand washed.

    Must of us here already have a heat press and a laser printer so it's a cheap investment for transfer sheets. I buy tiles at Home Depot $.15 ea get 2 transfer on an 8.5x11 sheet $.60 a sheet approx. The press temp & pressure isn't as critical as dye sub. 3 min in the press at 400 degrees (tile) and I have 2 tiles finished for under $1! For extra durablitity they can be heated in an oven for a few minutes (I've only done this for mugs as they need to be washed.)

    There are many items available to mount these to as well as adding them to a plaque or just using an easle back for standing alone.. This is a great addition for a shop esp with the holiday season coming up (GIFTS!)

    One of the main keys to this process you don't need to have a coated product such as dye sub. So uses are only limited by your imagination and not "product lines)

    I hope this helps,

    Marty
    Martin Boekers

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  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Rozwood View Post
    Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

    Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

    Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

    We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.
    Steve just a few thoughts here....

    Be careful about the "guns blarring" responses

    See Atomic Art posts and you'll get an idea

    I sure you can see from posts that for the large part "Creekers" have had good experience with your products.

    Like others it concerns me that you haven't stepped up to address and help those who needed additional insites on useing your product. Then you do come forward to warn us of patent infringement.

    What would have been nice to see would have been a response maybe addressing what many of use are doing now. EXPERIMENTING!

    All we are trying to do is find a product that is easy to use with consitantly high quality and affordable. It's much easier and cheaper (in the long run)
    to buy an existing product then trying to re-invent the wheel.

    If you look through posts of the past you can see we haven't been able to duplicate Cermark. (good spot for you to explain years of research and difficulty in creating this product. Pat yourself on the back a bit).

    When some one steps forward (Thanks Dee!) and expresses that there is a need to have a "sample pack" of different colors available so we can at least try them. (with out investing $100's) Hmmmm maybe you should have said Dee, what a great idea, let me put this before management and see what I can do. This is not only sales but customer service!

    A couple hundred dollars can make or break many of our month's at our shops. So pricing esp on new products for us without any guaranteed sales is tough!

    Just think if you came on board with a color sample set, a black sample of tape, powder and a smaller can at a affordable price you may bring many on board to you product line (NEW USERS!) Isn't that what helps a business grow?


    We are not a bad group of "patent busters" It's not easy to survive in this business. We survive and thrive on the products our vendors supply, but it is a two way street!..


    Just some thoughts


    Marty
    Martin Boekers

    1 - Epilog Radius 25watt laser 1998
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    1 - Epilog Legend EXT36 75watt laser 2007
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  13. #58
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    Well said, Marty! And might I add that another way for Ferro to make us love them would be to donate a sample pack to the FreeStuff Giveaway offer, and just sit back to see exactly how many potential customers are here to entice or repel by the company's attitude.

    dee
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  14. #59
    Thanks, Dee!

    I find it really amazing that only a few vendors step up to try to help us when we have problems.

    Everyone here knows those people and appreciate them in trying to resolve issues.

    Forums such as this are great ways for vendors to promote themselves (within the Creek's guidelines of course)


    You are absolutely right on about a donation to the giveaway. What a great marketing tool that is if used correctly.

    I hope vendors are taking heed!!

    When it comes to insites and great ideas we know we can count on you


    Marty
    Martin Boekers

    1 - Epilog Radius 25watt laser 1998
    1 - Epilog Legend EXT36 75watt laser 2005
    1 - Epilog Legend EXT36 75watt laser 2007
    1 - Epilog Fusion M2 32 120watt laser with camera 2015
    2 - Geo Knight K20S 16x20 Heat Press
    Geo Knight K Mug Press,
    Ricoh GX-7000 Dye Sub Printer
    Zerox Phaser 6360 Laser Printer
    numerous other tools and implements
    of distruction/distraction!

  15. #60
    I really love this place, rather, the incredibly insightful, helpful and intelligent individuals that frequent this forum. That alone makes me want a laser... even more.

    Your CLT post was certainly hepful, Martin. Thank you very much.
    CAMaster CR-408 Cobra X3

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