"Hand made"

[John Barton]

I think what some of you are forgetting is that there is a portion of the laser people who buy bulk boxes (or insert thing here) and merely laser a picture or word on the top and then sell it as hand made. I'm not buying the hand made part there. For what it is worth, I'd complain about a marquetry person doing the same thing.

In my opinion, however, the person who makes the box and then carves/inlays the top has more of a right to call it hand made than the bulk purchaser or the add-on people.

True but I don't think any of us are forgetting that. We know that the folks who misrepresent pre-made mass production items with laser engraved personalization are part of the problem.

In international shipping there are designations that you use to describe how much of the work was done where. For example if I want to ship my product to another country and have it carved and then shipped back to me I have to fill out the paperwork that indicates it will be "embellished". Thus there are no import duties on the product when it goes to the country it's going to. On the export though there will likely be a duty on the cost of the work done. As well as a duty on the import also on the cost of the embellishing. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing except to illustrate that under the law governing customs there are very exact descriptions for how and where products are made.

It's kind of sad that we do live in a world where so many people can get away with marketing deception and ruin it for those of us who are trying hard to present our products as just good products.

For years I had to fight against knockoffs of my work with the cheap knockoffs being sold as "Hand Made Genuine Leather" when in fact they were assembly line crap covered with the leather industry's equivalent of plywood - ground up leather bits and glue pressed into sheets with a thin plastic surface. :-(

Now, one of my competitors loves to tout that his cases are the "Choice of Champions" - of course he doesn't disclose on his website that he gives away the cases to all these players - easy choice when it's free. I wish the laser manufacturers would adopt a policy of giving away lasers just so they could claim that their product is the "choice" of laser professionals.

[Dan Hintz]

Now, one of my competitors loves to tout that his cases are the "Choice of Champions" - of course he doesn't disclose on his website that he gives away the cases to all these players - easy choice when it's free.

Nothing new there... ever notice how it's always 9 out of 10 doctors who choose a particular medication? Pick a medication, any medication, and it's the same number... even though there may be 10 different brands of aspirin, 9 out of 10 always prescribe <Insert favorite brand here>. It's not a lie, it's marketing. They give out free samples to 9 doctors and then poll 10 on what they're handing out to patients (who receive them as freebies). They could obviously do this to all 10 doctors, but then the numbers would appear fixed... marketing wants you to think it's the choice of as many as possible without setting off your BS detector.

It may not be accurate to the real world, but as long as it sounds good without being too good, it tempts people (and therefore does its job). I'd gladly give away some of my work so I could say the same thing. Even when you know the truth, it still gives people a feeling of comfort (unless you're a real pessimist like me and scowl at almost every obviously tainted claim).

[John Noell]

I started this thread because I saw people selling laser-cut earrings as "hand-made" and felt that was not accurate. (I do not claim mine to be such.) Hand-made" is a muddy term and does not capture the complexity of creating works in a modern age. But, to me, the essence of "hand-made" is that someone's hand guided the tool(s) used to create the image or shape the material. Personally, I am not physically able to do that without assistive devices (e.g., computer to draw and printer or laser to produce the physical result). Despite what I see in my "mind's eye", I will never have the physical skills required to guide a paintbrush on canvas exactly where I want it, or precisely guide a chisel through wood. I would like to think I do make some "art" -- and that it is not inherently less valuable because I used a pointing device (mouse) to nudge my lines into place. Maybe having the ability to undo my mistakes and re-do the lines lowers the stakes so far that it is no longer worthy of admiration. Or maybe the finished product is good enough to stand on its own merits, hand-made or not. Whether or not it is "fair" or reasonable (or even really possible) to separate "hand-made" from not hand-made, people will continue to do it (or think they can do it). I suspect the best we can hope for is that when someone insists on "hand-made" that they explain precisely what they mean, such as "No tools were used, only the hands (i.e., fingers, palms, and backs of hands)." Or, "No electrical tools were used." Or, "Individually produced works displaying exceptional creativity and/or skills."

[Dee Gallo]

John,

I disagree slightly with you - although I spent many years developing skills and revere the masters of traditional art, I feel that each generation brings its own evolution to the arts. The master painters like Vermeer were highly respected for their ability to make their own paints which in turn made their paintings better. They invented tools like the drawing grid, which is not the same as freehand drawing, but still require hand drawing. Handtools have evolved from sharpened rocks to today's laser - It just takes a different set of skills to create the work. Not better or worse... different.

Where I agree with you is when someone uses the computer as a drawing crutch (ie: can't draw without it) and their work always looks it to the trained eye because you can always spot clipart or bad design.

What I believe is that SOME laser users have developed the eye, the skill and the know-how to create exceptional pieces, some of which are also functional but still beautifully done and you have to admire the work, much as you would admire an architect's building.

I've said it before, the laser is only another tool. It cannot exist in a vacuum without other skills.

dee

[Randy Digby]

Well put Dee.

The thread brings to mind the opening of a local Ace Hardware store last spring, a couple of miles from my house. There was an artist out front carving tree trunks with a chain saw. I've also seen a lot of this type art in the Smoky Mountains along some very neat art & craft routes. Is the chainsaw carving hammer and chisel? Certailnly not. Does it require a separate skill set? Absolutely. Is it not hand made because of the smell of gasoline in the air as the artist works? The chainsaw adds a dimension to the art because of both the flexibility and the restrictions of the tool.

A lot of people here have displayed some very beautiful crafts and works of art on this forum, some that could be duplicated without using a powered tool of any sort, and others that would be pratically impossible to duplicate without modern computerized equipment. To say that their work does not "belong" because of their use of technology? I couldn't do that.

Let's leave it up to the customer. Let's let all craftsman and crafts compete and let the customer tell us what he likes as he votes with his money.

[Doug Griffith]

In my opinion, from a consumer's standpoint, "hand made" is a story that makes them feel more interesting as a person. Kind of like original art compared to a print. Both are the same image and invoke the same visual feelings but the original art has history and emotions attached to it.

It is a much better story thinking that an artisan whittled away at something with his bare, bleeding hands than a person pressing a button on a laser while eating a sandwich.

I also think that "hand made" equals "no two are alike". Humans are imperfect, machines are not (so consumers think) and can create exact duplicates (with another press of the button). The consumer adds this to their story.

I don't think it's the tool used for manufacture but the automation that's the culprit.

I bet there would be far more respect for the work if the laser was a hand held unit guided by the operators imperfect human hand.

[Scott Shepherd]

Is it really about hand made, or is it about mass produced? I think you could certainly do something really creative, as a one off, on the laser, and sell that as unique and demand higher prices, as opposed to sitting out a shelf with 100 of the same thing, and then boxes on the floor behind you that note there are 1000's more where that came from.

That's what I think cheapens the perceived value a lot more than whether it's hand made or not. I think people are more interested in unique than hand made. Just my opinion.

[Dee Gallo]

I bet there would be far more respect for the work if the laser was a hand held unit guided by the operators imperfect human hand.

I agree with you there, Doug - you can also add the fact that people who have tried to use a tool and found it too hard to master have more respect for those who are good at it. Not many people have even seen a laser and they don't have a clue as to what a computer is really capable of or how to do it. The majority of people who "use" a computer at work are actually data entry people who don't know how to do anything but fill in a blank. The rest of them surf the internet or email, which is not the same as running a program.

dee

[Doug Griffith]

The rest of them surf the internet or email, which is not the same as running a program.

You mean creating something from nothing by taking a concept in your head and using the tools in front of you (in this case a computer and a laser) to materialize that concept into a tangible item. When we purchased our equipment, it didn't come with a magic "create a product" button.

[John Barton]

I started this thread because I saw people selling laser-cut earrings as "hand-made" and felt that was not accurate. (I do not claim mine to be such.) Hand-made" is a muddy term and does not capture the complexity of creating works in a modern age. But, to me, the essence of "hand-made" is that someone's hand guided the tool(s) used to create the image or shape the material. Personally, I am not physically able to do that without assistive devices (e.g., computer to draw and printer or laser to produce the physical result). Despite what I see in my "mind's eye", I will never have the physical skills required to guide a paintbrush on canvas exactly where I want it, or precisely guide a chisel through wood. I would like to think I do make some "art" -- and that it is not inherently less valuable because I used a pointing device (mouse) to nudge my lines into place. Maybe having the ability to undo my mistakes and re-do the lines lowers the stakes so far that it is no longer worthy of admiration. Or maybe the finished product is good enough to stand on its own merits, hand-made or not. Whether or not it is "fair" or reasonable (or even really possible) to separate "hand-made" from not hand-made, people will continue to do it (or think they can do it). I suspect the best we can hope for is that when someone insists on "hand-made" that they explain precisely what they mean, such as "No tools were used, only the hands (i.e., fingers, palms, and backs of hands)." Or, "No electrical tools were used." Or, "Individually produced works displaying exceptional creativity and/or skills."

As long as "Marketing" exists then this debate will never stop. Some companies and individuals will stretch the truth as far as they can get away with or outright lie.

The whole designation "Hand-Made" should just be banned from marketing. Not because something could not be substantially or wholly made "by hand" but because it truly adds NO VALUE to the product except as an emotional trigger.

I used to make my cases in Germany and later moved the production to the Czech Republic.

I never advertised "made in Germany". People took to calling them German cases as equivocating them to BMW and Mercedes. Even after I explained to people and dealers that I did not want the cases sold as "GERMAN QUALITY" and the like they still did it.

The point being that it IS unfair trade practice when someone outright lies about their product is made in order to influence the consumer into believing that this designation conveys a higher value, it's probably also illegal.

I think that the only way for the little guy to fight this unfairness is to educate the consumer. Put up an essay on your site, blog, or hand out flyers at events which explain the difference.

Now, if there is a guy cutting earrings out of coconut shells on the beach using a tiny scroll saw vs. a guy doing the same thing on the boardwalk with his laser then I personally am going to treasure the ones the guy with the scroll saw is doing simply because each one will be unique even if he is using a template. Now if the laser guy is spending some time with the customer and playing around with the file to make each one unique then that's different for me and I would treasure both equally.

Even though I fully understand all that goes into doing the initial design I think we all understand that a cookie cutter is still a cookie cutter even when it's the size of a desk.

I have made unique parts for cases that most likely will never be made again. Parts I spent days designing and cutting and testing. However IF I ever did want to do something similar then I have a head start on the process. That's where the laser comes in for me.

I am sure that I could take a laser and figure out a way to make unique art that would sell. However if I were an actual artist then I could probably make art that would inspire.

[John Barton]

Is it really about hand made, or is it about mass produced? I think you could certainly do something really creative, as a one off, on the laser, and sell that as unique and demand higher prices, as opposed to sitting out a shelf with 100 of the same thing, and then boxes on the floor behind you that note there are 1000's more where that came from.

That's what I think cheapens the perceived value a lot more than whether it's hand made or not. I think people are more interested in unique than hand made. Just my opinion.

I agree but in a world where people see two similar items then the one which is touted as "hand made" unfortunately seems to have a higher perceived value.

For me I don't care about hand made unless I am standing there watching the person make it by hand. Otherwise it's just marketingspeak to my ears. I am not above using it but when I do then it means we do something that cannot be done by using a machine.

[John Noell]

Where I agree with you is when someone uses the computer as a drawing crutch (ie: can't draw without it) and their work always looks it to the trained eye because you can always spot clipart or bad design.

I am not too sure where we disagree. But as someone who cannot draw by hand (my eye sees where the line should go but my hands cannot get it there) I may be a bit sensitive. However, I hope that the absence of any clipart and years studying art and design compensate somewhat -- and that the trained eye will not see through me too quickly.

[Michael Hunter]

In the Corel thread recently we had the "Perfectify" button concept.
Now Doug has come up with the "Create Product" button.

I hope that Peck is paying attention - I want these buttons on my nex Epilog!

[Lee DeRaud]

In the Corel thread recently we had the "Perfectify" button concept.
Now Doug has come up with the "Create Product" button.

Nothing new, just a bit of semantics, innit? If you push the 'perfectify' button on a blank page...

[Doug Griffith]

Nothing new, just a bit of semantics, innit? If you push the 'perfectify' button on a blank page...

My button's on the laser itself. No need for Corel or even a computer!