Machine Upgrade Questions

[Chris Tsutsui]

So I've had a 12" lunchbox Makita Planer for quite some time. I get snipe and tearout and sometimes boards get stuck. But for the most part it's ok, but I could use a slightly larger capacity sometimes and some more power.

I'm considering the Powermatic 15" Planer Deluxe 15S because I found a used one for more than 50% off.

So tomorrow i'm supposed to look at this machine but then I stumbled upon a Hammer A3 31 Jointer/Planer machine "NEW" never been used for like 40% off.

The Hammer is of course a little more than twice the cost of the PM, but it means I will have a new Jointer, and then someday I can upgrade it with the mortiser. The jointer I currently have is only a 6" Delta so the Hammer will be a nice jointer upgrade as well.

So I think the Hammer is the way to go, but then I saw that it takes a little over a minute to do the changeover so I was wondering if this becomes a hassle because I like to go directly from the jointer to the planer and having separates allows this.

In addition, moving such large items seems like another issue. I only have a minivan so I was thinking that a HF shop crane might help move this in and out of the van after dissasembling a couple major parts... Either that I will have to hire a mover with lift gate to help me move this thing to my garage. The Hammer weighs like 700lbs but I think the 1 or 2 ton shop crane can bring the bulk of the unit in and out of the van, but I'm not sure.

Anyways I basically have 3 decisions:

1. Go for the Hammer A3.

2. Go for the PM 15" planer, save over $1k and get a separate 8" Jointer from Grizzly with spiral cutterhead some time in the future... Maybe upgrade the cutter on the PM as well with the money saved.

3. Don't get either and save for a new table saw like a slider... heh

[Mike Heidrick]

Chris, how much room do you have in your shop? If you have room for seperates you wil most likely not regret that decision. A 12" jointer takes up a lot of room but maybe you would not need that large? It depends on the size of the wood you buy I guess.

If you decide to go combo...

Have you considered the 12" Jet or Grizzly jointer planer? Is their price a savings vs. the Hammer you found? I love the Felder/Hammer line but the import jointer planers sure seem nice for the money.

Laguna makes a cheaper platnium horiz slot mortiser if you ever decide you want that. It will be close to the add on mortiser costs from felder and you can keep it in a seperate shop away from the jointer. I see a lot of mortisers on combo machines sitting on their mobile carts.

The nicer euro mortisers are $3-4K and there is quite a bit more quality and on some the head moves (in/out and some tilt) vs. the work table moving. That could come in handy in mortising LARGE pieces.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I had no idea how much the mortiser attachment costs for the Hammer A3, but was hoping it was under $1,000. If it's more then that, then I would just get by with a cheaper Domino or hollow chisel mortiser.

My shop is a 2 car garage that's a little oversize. Havn't put a car in there in a long time because I've always got projects going on. I would like everything mobile, and the Hammer A3 does come with the wheels/dolly arm.

Whoops, I didn't mean to say I would get a 12" jointer in the future, I would just get an 8" spiral cutter jointer. I'll edit that in my original post.

I can get the Grizzly combo planer/jointer G0634Z but I would have to pay a few hundred dollars more for that machine than if I got the Hammer.

[David Wong]

I ran across a similar deal to yours, where I purchased a Hammer A3 31 "never been used", for more than 50% off the retail price. In my case, the machine had been sitting outside in its shipping crate for 2 years, under a tarp.

I had to hire movers to get it into my 2-car garage. The A3 31 was still on its shipping pallet, which had a shipping weight of 800 lbs. I needed to find a mover that had a rail gate, which is a longer version of a lift gate. The pallet would not be fully supported on a standard lift gate. With a pallet jack and rail gate truck, there was no drama at all in my move.

I still do not have the A3 31 off the shipping pallets yet. I am planning to get a 2-ton engine crane and lifting straps to get it off the pallet. I think I need a 2-ton crane due to the extension on the boom.

Here is a picture from another thread of lifting the Hammer with an engine crane: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83523

[John Harden]

I recently sold my PM 15S. It works well, but I had two issues I didn't like. First, was the fact that the blades were somewhat fragile. Only the leading edge is solid steel and it is both thin and not very wide. The rest is segmented to allow it to bend around the spiral kerf in the cutterhead. Very clever design, but there have been numerous complaints from owners who say the blades knick very easy. I know mine did. Perhaps this is why they began offering the Byrd cutterhead (true spiral, versus what Grizz and others sell) Having said that, it planes very well and is a snap to change blades without the need for jigs to set it. The blades automatically self align.

I would recommend the Hammer. MUCH better unit than either the PM or Grizzly. You'll love the 12" wide jointer and change over is easy. Lifting the tables is a snap and is done in about 5 seconds. The only thing that takes some time is cranking the knob to raise or lower the planer bed. It has to be down at least 4" or more in order for the jointer bed to close properly. Even still, this only takes about 10-15 seconds. One downside of course is you'll still have a 12" planer. Have you ever needed one wider? Something to consider if you feel that is a limiting factor.

I recently bought (haven't received yet) the Felder AD741, which is the big brother to the Hammer with 16" capacity. I visited the shops of MM and Felder owners locally and the guy with the MM J/P demonstrated (and let me toy with) his machine. Cranking the wheel to lower the planer bed isn't really much of an issue, particularly once you factor in the benefit of the increased capacity of the 12" jointer.

When it comes to Felder/Hammer/MM, I'd not be concerned over the lack of a spiral cutterhed. They are so well tuned and engineered that they give amazingly good results. Knives are razor sharp and self setting to exactly the proper depth. Fellow with the 10 year old MM and I ran a very knotty white oak board through his planer and it came out smooth as a baby's bottom. His machine had Tersa knives. The Felder/Hammer units are basically identical with the same planing quality. They also offer Tersa, so you might check to see which ones it has.

Not sure about the Hammer, but the Felder machines are all designed to be easily moved with a pallet jack. Makes it very easy to deliver the units to your home, or vice versa. They have cut outs for the forks to fit underneath (narrow gauge forks). All you'd need is a pallet jack and a vehicle with a lift gate, which you can rent. Heck, Home Depot rents them!!

Perhaps the best advice I can give you is to go see the machines in person and use them before making a decision.

BTW, did you see the AD741 with DigiDrive for sale in the classifieds? Of course it weighs over 1200 pounds, but $7500 is a steal. List price is almost twice that......

Regards,

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Chris, you'd be a fool to pass up the Hammer.

I have the A3-31 and it is a great machine.

- powerful and smooth

- perfect surface finish planing or jointing with NO snipe

- a 12" wide jointer, how can you pass on that?

- far less than a minute to change from one function to another.

- quick detachable table extensions can be shared between planer and jointer, they add 18" to the table length.

- easy change knives.

Regards, Rod.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I ran across a similar deal to yours, where I purchased a Hammer A3 31 "never been used", for more than 50% off the retail price. In my case, the machine had been sitting outside in its shipping crate for 2 years, under a tarp.

I had to hire movers to get it into my 2-car garage. The A3 31 was still on its shipping pallet, which had a shipping weight of 800 lbs. I needed to find a mover that had a rail gate, which is a longer version of a lift gate. The pallet would not be fully supported on a standard lift gate. With a pallet jack and rail gate truck, there was no drama at all in my move.

I still do not have the A3 31 off the shipping pallets yet. I am planning to get a 2-ton engine crane and lifting straps to get it off the pallet. I think I need a 2-ton crane due to the extension on the boom.

Here is a picture from another thread of lifting the Hammer with an engine crane: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=83523

David, I did some research on the Hammer and your pictures and threads came up on the first page of bing/google searches.

I saw the rust damage and your A3 and the tedius process in restoring the surface which looked great. David, your images gave me plenty of detailed pictures of the Hammer A3... heh

I like buying lumber that needs to be milled to size and I don't think i've had that many instances where I needed a 15" planer instead of a 12".

I also did some searching on these forums as well so I know Rod had to maneuver his Hammer quite a ways to make it to his basement.

People use pallet jacks, come-alongs and bars, or even 7 lowland gorillas...

I only have a driveway and a garage and I can just back a truck to the garage and drop it down. I'm actually not concerned about moving it too much, but I'm always concerned about the investment.

In about an hour and a half I'm going to go see the A3 in person. I'll probably just inspect it and fire it up and check it for missing pieces, etc...

If I like this then I will schedule a time to pick it up. This tool might be worth the investment in a shop crane because I honestly don't know how you are supposed to move the machine from the van or truck, to the pallet jack and vice versa. Unless that truck has a lift gate...

I might end up canceling my appointment to see the PM 15S.

David you're lucky that you paid $1500 for yours... I'm looking more at like $2,000-$2,250... We'll see how the negotiations go after I see the machine.

[Joe Mioux]

I have a MM FS 30 which is the same as the Hammer.

at forty percent off, you could buy it, try it out and if you don't like it, could probably sell it for more than you paid for it.

Converting from jointer to planer is easy, you just need to keep things organized. By that I mean, joint all your wood first, then convert it to the planer.

it isn't bad at all.

joe

[Michael Flores]

Chris, im sure what ever machine you pick will be a nice upgrade. Its always fun to have new machines. I recently bought a 16 inch Grizzly jointer from another woodworker. That machine weighs 1700 lbs. The Machine was practically brand new and he still had it on the shipping pallet. I went and rented a $40 trailer from U-Haul that had a double axle and flat bottom. I was lucky cause the guy happened to have a fork lift so he lifted the machine on the trailer for me. When i got home i bought 4 furniture movers from home desperate for $80 and put them under the pallet and rolled the machine off the trailer. The drop is about a foot and now i can move the machine around until i find its permanent location.

[John Harden]

Chris, they are $3K new during their fall sale, so use that as a negotiating point. The Felder website has a link to download the fall catalogue sale items.

Good luck!!!!!

Regards,

John

[Chris Tsutsui]

So I saw the Hammer A3 31 and am pretty excited about it and the owner is going to hold it for me so I can pick it up Saturday morning.

It was brand spanking new without a single scratch. Everything was factory packaged still and it even had the wax paper on the cast iron and there was no rust and not a spec of sawdust.

It came with the original shipping list, manual, and a box of misc parts. It has the mobile arm and caster package as well. It actually isn't that hard to move around with the included arm dolly.

On the packing list it said that it comes with the digital readout and aluminum wheel, but I honestly couldn't find it... I only saw the black wheel on the machine. Any insight on this? Perhaps it's in a different box or hidden some place safe on the machine during shipment?

I'm just going to give her $2250 for it and not try to negotiate any lower than the asking price because really there were no surprises on this brand new unit and I feel bad that her husband passed away and now she is selling his tools.

So my idea so far is to get the 2 ton shop crane at Harbor Freight on Friday. Use it to load and unload the machine into the back of a van. So i'm wondering if I should wrap the ropes under the base of the machine, or should I also wrap around the cast iron wings?

If I pay a mover, it's like 25 miles away so I would expect to pay like $100 anyways and I think I can wrestle this with a little help from my brother in law.

Thanks for the advice here.

[Mike Heidrick]

There will be 3 or 4 attachment points to lift that machine. I would go get the engine hoist with the load leveler and four of the 10,000 lb rated straps. Use the straps at the 4 points to the load leveler/hoist, lift it to the trailer, then secure it to the trailer with the straps. If the trailer has a wooden deck bring some 2Xs and block it around the machine (screw right to the deck) and over any base you might have. Strap it to the four corners of the trailer.

This may not work for you but I hope it can give you some ideas.

[Rick Fisher]

Hey good choice..

The Hammer is a much better choice than the Powermatic planer.. (IMO)

Use that Hammer for 5 years and you can probably still sell it for close to what you paid..

Going from a Makita 2012 to a Hammer is a huge leap.. ( I still have my Makita under the bench.. dont know why I keep it.. sentimental I guess) .. The performance difference will be shocking..

Does it have Tersa knives or the Felder knives?

When you fire that machine up, you will know you have a high quality machine in your shop.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

My problem with the combo machines is that the jointer tables are so short. The main advantage of my DJ20, for me is that the tables are so long that the straighten longer boards. I would think that shorter boards which were really out of wack would be hard to joint on a combo machine.

I pickup lumber whenever I can, even if it is twisted up, with the long tables on my jointer it flattens out anything.

[Rod Sheridan]

Jeef if you add the 18" quick detach table extensions to the Hammer A3-31 it results in a 91" long jointer.

Then when you don't want to be running into the long tables you loosen the lock levers, and remove the tables.

The nice thing about the Euro machines is you always have the machine you need at the moment, not the one you need once a year.

As an aside, this week I completed two pieces of baseboard that were 8 feet long and 9 inches high.

Due to a molding detail I had to make the base piece 7" high, and glue the top 2" piece onto the base.

I used my A3-31 without extension tables just to see what a 55" long jointer will do with a 96" long work piece.

Well, I had the classic sprung joint when I glued it up, about 1/64" gap in the middle.........Just perfect.

The second piece I used the extension tables because they're so much more convenient with long pieces, same joint result.

So although I've heard many times about the "Short Comings" (Pun intended) of the combo machines, I haven't experienced any.

Regards, Rod.