Why are pen turners treated as second class turners?

[Ben Brown27]

It was the attack and counter-attacks....about pen turning being more difficult than bowl turning....and bowl turning being more difficult than pen turning.

.....

I suggest that the probable source of the perceived feeling of being treated like a 2nd class turner might be seen when one looks in the mirror. I know I see one when I shave every morning.

To be perfectly honest Ken, before your last comment, I hadn't read anything that seemed like an attack or a counter attack. I've seen a pretty open and frank discussion. There have been many people that contributed to this thread and said they had seen or experienced the same thing. If it's the man in the mirror, then there must be a bunch of us hanging out in front of the mirror.

I said at the top of this thread that I wasn't trying to start a flame war, and I also said this was about attitudes in areas other than just the creek. It's not about how many replies somebody has or hasn't gotten. If I am out for a bunch of replies to a pen I would post to a IAP. It's about a perceived attitude found in some turner groups.

I asked this question here because I thought the creek could handle a good honest discussion. I thought we were doing a good job. I've gotten to see several different views, and it's been pretty informative. I really see no reason you would need to come in and lock the thread and hide it from public view.

None of my comments were meant with any disrespect to any person or turning style. I turn anything I can mount between centers. Bowls, platters, Hollow Forms, Pens, Game Calls, Tops, Bracelets, and anything else I feel like trying. None of those things have been any easier or harder, they've just been different tools and different techniques. Every turning has it's own set of challenges.

For me this is my last comment.

[Gary Herrmann]

Wow. Contentious thread. Why?

I've turned pens, pencil pots, bowls, boxes, hollow forms, mallets, tool handles...

I've probably missed something. This thread made me realize I haven't posted any finished projects in awhile. I've been sneaking my turnings in amidst the furniture projects I'm working on. Eww... Flat work...

I have seen some very fine work posted on all of the items above.

Skill levels vary. Experience varies. Touch varies. Quality of tools varies...

Why does it matter? Enjoy what you create. Enjoy what you see others create and compliment them on it. Or not.

I'm not all that wild about turning pens. I find it somewhat repetitious, and I've only made 50 or 60. What I do like is when I give or sell a pen to someone and watching their reaction. They hold it in their hand and say "you made this?" "How?" And off we go.

I like watching larger forms take shape when I turn them. With a pen, you only have so much room for shape. A person needs to hold it in their hand and write with it. Same thing with a chisel handle - only you're writing in wood.

To me, flat work is more about the result than the process. Unless you enjoy hand tools, which I do, and that's another endless conversation. Turning has always seemed to me more about the journey.

Enjoy what you enjoy, and allow the rest to enjoy what they enjoy. Arguing over it is like when the fleas argue over who's dog it is.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ben,

You started this thread stating YOUR PERCEPTION. I just figured the person who formed this perception was the person you look at in the mirror daily.

I reread the entire thread and if my math is correct 3 maybe 4 posters agreed with you. More turners including those who turn pens disagreed with your perception.

I will repeat myself again......a lack of replies is not a slam on the skills of the turner but is an indication of a lack of interest in that which was posted. It's a reality. As surely as you don't reply to every thread due to a lack of interest and time, others do too.

You asked for opinions, I simply gave mine. I feel your perception is a minority one.

The threat to close the thread and move it to the Moderators Forum was brought on by the tit-for-tat bickering back and forth that I PERCEIVED. I could be wrong with my perception.

If you feel insulted my apologies. I would never insult publically insult someone.

[Dennis Peacock]

Wow!!! I've been away from turning way too long. I've came back in here to find out that I've been discriminated against....I'm a pen turner...and a bowl turner.....and a platter turner.....and a....gulp....flatworker!!!!!

To me? Pen turners are as respected as any other turner. I've seen some awesome pens in my days and I've turned and sent many pens to troops as part of the Freedom Pens Project. I have a respect for those that stick with turning pens and to those that stick with woodworking in general.

Do hand slapping here...just respect and pats on the back to all you turners out there.

[John Keeton]

...I've been discriminated against...

Hey Dennis, you WERE discriminated against...but, it was because you are a Razorback!!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I pick on him because he wears bib overalls too!

I once drove 600+ miles just to have dinner with Dennis and his family. It was worth every mile and then some!

[John Keeton]

John,

I pick on him because he wears bib overalls too!

Well, that explains it!!

[Jeff Luedloff]

I feel there are no any second class pen turners, or second class wood turners period. It don't matter in my opinion how you wood is held on a lathe by mandrel, faceplate, chuck, glue block or between centers, it spins you tool it, your a wood turner. Maybe there is more experienced to newbies, but we all learn ideas and technique from one another. That's what makes local wood turning clubs, and great forums like this one a useful tool. Have fun turning and be safe.

[Curt Fuller]

For me this is my last comment.

Now don't go away mad, Ben!

The title of the post, "Why are pen turners treated as second class turners?", was a very provocative way to ask the question that I felt you were trying to ask, "Why don't SOME people appreciate turned pens?" But either way, the question is loaded. To respond, one would have to either defend why they think pen turners are second class or proclaim why they don't think pen turners are second class. And that's the type of responses I think you got for the most part. But it tended to pit pen turners against those that don't turn pens. That created friction and a little heat and the mod's job is to monitor that and throw a bucket of water on it if it gets too hot.

That said, I took the time to visit your website expecting to see a beautiful display of your pens, which I did. You turn beautiful pens! But I was also amazed at the "other" work you've done. And because I'm more into "other" turnings like many here I suggest those that haven't seen Ben's site take a look. http://www.artturned.com/forms-and-bowls/

[David Cramer]

WOW Ben, you do some pretty incredible turning!!! Well done and a very nice site. Continue with the fantastic turning!

David

[Ben Brown27]

Now don't go away mad, Ben!

Maybe I should clarify. That was my last post pertaining to this thread. Seems like folks are getting agitated, so there's no reason to continue. I'll still be around, Just moving to other topics. Thanks for the kind words on the bowls and such. I'll be posting some new picks pretty soon.

Ben

[michael gallagher]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.

Ditto what someone else said - about 10 minutes.

Let me give you an example - my Dad is a pretty good segmented turner, and he can have 40, 60, 80 or more hours in a bowl or platter before he starts sanding, applying a finish, etc. Most of that time is the cutting, gluing, fixing "uh-ohs" and things like that. Very little time is spent turning in relationship to your total time.

As a penturner myself, I agree the slimlines ARE boring - I don't particularly care for all of the bulges and strange shapes some people come up with to your basic slimline; the slimline, however, is very popular with folks because it can fit in a checkbook and is about the right size for a woman's hand. I prefer segmenting things out of corian, stone, metal, and wood or turning something casted whether it is wood, leaves, flowers and seeing what your mind can create. Plus, I like to see if I can do it because that kind of stuff is hard - if you're not spot on, it's imperfect and being so small people will notice. Not like a bowl where yo ucan immediately change the shape.

A person can also have only so many fountain pens, etc. - my very young son asked me "what are you going to do with all of these pens?" I give 95% of what I make away as I don't have the time, patience, or inclination to be one of the guys you see with a booth selling pens. People appreciate a good pen, especially when they know it was handcrafted by someone they know. I feel good when, if I see the person I gave a pen to a year or so later, using that pen - especially when they don't know they are about to see me (and thus have an excuse to brown-nose and pull the pen out prior to my arrival).

I can see where you bowl turners who have never turned a pen but certainly have strong opinions would feel otherwise. How about giving it a shot and turn a pen or three first?

[Gary Max]

Here's a little trick to becoming more than just a pen turner.

Freedom Pen Project

[Keith Outten]

Sorry for the shameless plug here but the Freedom Pens Project is just about completely out of pens. We have several pen requests from our Troops in the Middle East we can't supply right now and we could use some help from our turners.

In years past we were able to keep an inventory so we could ship requests for pens almost immediately and provide a large shipment just before Christmas. The war keeps going and yet we have lost a lot of support so the number of pens received is dropping.

Please help us out if you can!
.

[Scott Hackler]

I am relatively new to turning. I turned a little when I was young, but just recently jumped head first into the vortex. (less than a year ago). I really like tuning bowls, HF and all things big. Just out of curiousity I wanted to try pens. I ordered a mandrel and the Euro kits and started to turn away. It is really fun to make theses pens. I think part of the reason is the 1 hour or less completely finished process. Instant gradification. Now on this style of pen, there is little in the artistic expression and as far as skill level.... beginner to intermediate. But still fun. I like the change up and am always looking at different things to go round and round.

Now as far as "second class".... I think pen (only) turners are just different turners. Its all about personal preference. To me I have a lot more control over the artistic aspect and every piece is unique. All of my pens are the same, except for the wood. Still cool, just not something that I would have sitting in a gallery.

I think that some pen turners get into the vortex with a smaller lathe, small investment and are a little intimidated by the "other" projects. I spoke with a local pen turner a while back and told him that I have turned pens but bowls and such was what I really like. He has been turning for 10 years and has never tried a bowl. I explained the satisfaction and he said he might try it.