Member
I have a 6" Starrett that is over 50 years old, a Craftsman 12" that is over 40 years old and an Empire 18" that is 2 years old. All check out with a machinist square and each other. There is little doubt the the quality order is the same as I stated them in but even the Empire gets the job done as it is used infrequently. The 6" Starrett is my go to square for 90% of the work I do.
Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school. Einstein
In my shop I remove the "S" from scrap wood.
Contributor
I have a small Starrett given to me as a gift and I love it although if your looking for a bargain, my advise is to look through antique and second hand shops for a Lufkin made in Saginaw, Michigan. Lufkin is my favorite measuring device. Quality is there & I'd stack them(the Saginaw built models) up against Starrett anytime.
Mac
Contributor
I believe you can adjust these with a hammer, punch & some well placed hits.....Originally Posted by Jon Grider
Mac
Contributor
I own a few Empires from Lowes. They all check out square and I don't panic when they go missing on a job site, fall off my bench, or get something heavy thrown on top of them.
I have been in the business for ten years or so and of dozens of combination squares I have seen on the job, I have only seen one Starrett. Of course, it was owned by a very recent graduate of some woodworking/design school whom had never actually worked in the field. She also had just about every plane that Lie-Nielson makes and many other cool toys.
My point is that, in my experience, there is no real need to spend more the a few dollars on a combination square. This I believe is evident in the tool bags of every professional wood worker I have ever worked with. These are guys that reach for these things dozens of times a day. Mind you these are not unknowing butchers who wouldn't know square from a hole in their head. These are real craftsmen who have, through years of experience, come to the conclusion that expensive squares do not have much value beyond their Bling factor.
Not that the one Starrett I have seen wasn't better than my cheapo. It certainly was clearly superior to my POS in fit and finish. But it didn't perform any better (yes, I checked).
Member
I bought a starrett and it is dead on! I use it to check the other squares before I buy them.
Member
Mac, you can adjust a framing square with a hammer and prick punch but not a combination square. To adjust a combination square you have to very carefully file the head with an auger file. Have never done it but Carol Reed has a section on it in her "Router Joinery Workshop" book - your library might have a copy.
Basically, check the combination square with a drafting triangle. Remove the blade from the combination square and hold the head with the blade slot up. File the bottom of the slot on the high side with the auger file.
Jim
Contributor
Jim,
Sorry I thought the discussion had shifted to Framing Squares, I was referring to framing square adjustment.
Mac
Member
I had one of those craftsman squares that was close to 1/8" out. My dad showed me how to lay the square flat and take a nail set on the inside corner of the square (perpendicular to the flat) and hit it with a hammer until it was square. About 20 minutes later, it passed the pencil test - good enough for framing!
Member
I agree in general with the comment from Mr. Means (how much accuracy do we really need?) but considering that we often use the combo square to check machine setup and accuracy, it's nice to know that what you're using is indeed highly accurate.
That said, flea markets and other used tool sources are good sources for Starret, Mitutoyo and vintage Lufkin, General, Craftsman and Stanley combination squares that can be had for half the price (or less) of a new Starrett. Be sure to check them before purchasing though, as they may have been dropped or otherwise abused. If you live in our part of the country, look into the Midwest Tool Collector's Association (M-WTCA) who hold regional meets a couple of times a year and you'll have more combination squares to select from than you had any idea existed.
--Steve--
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Member
On any given day you will find 2000+ used machinist tools on eBay - Starret and the like. The Starrets command a bit more of a premium, my combo square is a Brown & Sharpe. It is accurate, smooth, easy to read, and slides on and off easily.
Among other tools, I also picked up one of those "planer/shaper" guages. I use it to set the jointer fence square to the tables. A six inch sliding caliper is also nice. Then there are tools like the dial caliper to help you set up your woodworking tools. It is not so much that I am trying to work to the thousandth of an inch, but that these tools make it very easy to work accurately without straining the eyes.
I think it is partly the de-industrialization of America, and partly the conversion to digital which makes these premium used tools readily available and relatively inexpensive.
Friend of the Creek
measure with a micrometer
mark with chalk
cut with an axe
Member
I think the Popular Woodworking blog had a blurb about Bridge City's version. Wow! That looks nice.
Funny how you can spend $6 or $250 on different versions of the same tool. I know it is true for many things, but that is a big gap.
Member
I have a couple of empires all are sqare enough for woodworking. They are cheap enough if you loose one or damage one you go buy another. That is why I have 4 of them. For the type of work we do I dont see spending big dollars on a starret. Its not like be are building rockets or going to the moon.
Contributor
Paul echoes my thought. I'm certain the Starretts, Brown & Sharpe etc. are superb tools. Except for machine setup, how good do you need? Right now, Empire, Stanley and the like are more accurate than I am. I've bought some drafting triangle that seem very accurate for machine setup.
Member
While it is true that a Starrett (or other quality machinist's square) is not 10X better than a BORG square or 4X better than a knock off, there are significant quantitative and qualitative differences. It's like a BMW M5 vs a Chevy Malibu. One of the products is manufactured to higher standards with superior materials. The two devices look pretty similar and serve pretty much the same function but one performs incrementally better than the other and rewards the discerning user with some degree of return on their investment. Some may argue that's vanity and for some it may be, but the products ARE different.
I find many quality tools to be worth the investment (and I'm always on the lookout for high-value impostors). I use a combo square pretty much every day, when a high quality version is not at hand, I am often frustrated by the relative clumsiness and lack of precision in an inferior example. I have on old Craftsman w/cast head and heavy rule in my traveling tool bag, it's square, slides easily, locks positively and I'm not out $90 if it goes missing.
If I'd never used I quality square, I may think $90 is a ridiculous price to pay when I can get a square for $8. Then again if people like me didn't appreciate quality, precision and innovation, Starrett, Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Bridge City and the like wouldn't be in business.
My advise is buy the best you can afford. If you buy well, you'll only buy once and you rarely hear people complaining that a tool is too goo or works too well.
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