Ebony Cabinet Satin Refinish Problems

[Jane Koepsel]

I've started refinishing my kitchen cabinets (Oak frame with a veneer beadboard insert and sides), I stripped, sanded, stained with Minwax Ebony (oil-based). All was going fine, until I started applying the Minwax Helmsman Satin Polyurethane. I have that cloudiness others have mentioned and it frosts/clouds with the brush strokes. I'm having to apply more and more coats to get a smooth finish, sanding a lot in between, but then the cloudiness gets worse. After lots of work and sanding the finish, some are ok (slightly cloudy, but livable). I want to make this easier or I'll never finish. Some I've tried 8 times to get a decent finish and they still aren't good. I'll never finish at this rate.

I called Minwax and they told me there was moisture(? - no water was used and I dried them thoroughly) trapped from the stain and I'd have to sand off the polyurethane and wipe off the stain which then I wouldn't get the color I wanted. I was very careful about not leaving on too much stain and dried them thoroughly. Minwax states, "The satin polyurethane should have a clear finish, not cloudy." After reading here, it seems the problem is the satin polyurethane? Some of my boxes and doors are finished so I hate to have to strip them and start over. Somehow what they told me isn't making sense.

I also tested Varathanes brand of satin and you could actually see the white pigment in it and it applied on even worse. I didn't see this in the minwax product but I'm assuming it contains a wax or something to dull the finish.

I was also having a problem with the polyurethane drying too fast, I thinned it with paint thinner (Minwax said not to use odorless products as they have a conditioner in them and the can says not to thin.) I live in Phoenix, so it's very dry here and have found it must be below 80 degrees to apply the finish.

Now I'm thinking of applying a gloss or semi-gloss (which one? Will semi-gloss have that milkiness, but less so than the satin?) with a final coat of satin OR gloss/semigloss (?) and steel wooling the finish? Which is best/easier? Is there a better product?

Sure could use some advice? I'm really frustrated at what is going wrong. This isn't my first refinishing project and I've never had this problem.

Thanks!

[Scott Holmes]

First mistake is using an EXTERIOR finish on an interior project.

Exterior finishes are LESS waterproof and LESS water vaporproof than interior finishes.

I would guess that the finish is filming over in the high temps and dry conditions before the varnish has had time to let all the thinner out.

How thick of a coat are you applying?


As for satin and semi-gloss you must mix the flatten agent very well.

[Conrad Fiore]

Jane,
I'd like you to make a sample. Get a piece of wood and stain it as you stained the cabinets. Allow it to dry for the same period of time that you did the cabinets. Since you are working with the Minwax products, Go out and buy the smallest can of Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane in satin finish and a couple of foam brushes. Apply the poly as marked on the can with gentle strokes and overlap brush strokes slightly. DO NOT OVER BRUSH! You may go back over a stroke to help level, but leave it at that or you will create worse brush marks and the poly won't flow out.
After doing this, compare it to what you have and we'll go from there.

[Jane Koepsel]

To S. Holmes: The Helmsman is an interior/exterior product. I did mix it well and while applying. I found thinning it with some paint thinner (not odorless) and applying is when it is below 80 degrees is a must. I try and brush it on as thin as possible and as fast as possible w/o overbrushing (yes I do need to go over it a little to flatten out the finish). I've tried a Wooster brush ($ as I could find) and the foam brushes, I like the foam better. I've applied many coats, but sanded a lot off between coats, because the final finish wasn't turning out.

To C. Fiore: I stripped a couple of the doors I'd done yesterday to retry. Do you mean to go buy new polyurethane (non-Helmsman)?

I did notice the stripper took off quite a bit of stain on the oak parts. (I also rinsed the stripper off with water to raise the grain - I hope this helps them to absorb the stain) I thought I'd sand them with 150 grit sandpaper, reapply the stain (How much of the stain do I have to remove? Until the rag comes clean, like Minwax advised? I'm afraid the color won't be very dark at all. Do you let it dry and then wipe more off with paint thinner?), then polyurethane, again. Should I start with a new can?

Minwax states there are 3 reasons for the cloudiness:

1) Applying when too cold (not a problem here in AZ)
2) Applying when too humid (not a problem here)
3) Reaction with the stain/too much stain on surface (could be?)

Minwax's satin does contain a flattening agent though it is not noticeable in the can like the Varathane's.

Thanks! I really need to figure this out to cut down on the work I'm having to do.

[Conrad Fiore]

Helmsman is a spar varnish, used mostly for outside purposes because it is softer and more "elastic" for wood movement that you would encounter in an exterior use.
If you are going to use Minwax, get the Minwax® Fast-Drying Polyurethane in satin finish. I don't use too much of the brush applied poly anymore, but I did use the Minwax fast dry poly on a crotch walnut veneer dresser that I refurbished a few years ago and it came out beautiful. I applied with a foam brush and there were no brush marks or cloudyness. On that particular project I used Minwax Walnut gel stain.
With regards to wiping off the stain, yes, you must wipe off ALL the stain that sits on the surface. I would suggest that you wipe to even the stain, wait a few minutes and then wipe to remove ALL the surface stain. Wiping with mineral spirits is not needed. You can't make the color darker at the risk of not removing all the stain that has not been absorbed into the wood. If the color is not dark enough after wiping completely, you will have to probably have to use some sort of glaze to achieve the color you are looking for. The problem with home refinishing is that on certain dark colors, you will not be able to match the finishing schedule that was used when the cabinets were manufactured. Some of those cabinets go through 5 or 6 coloring steps spraying shading and toning coats.

[Scott Holmes]

Jane I know the can says it's interior and exterior... but they are marketing folks...if it's spar, it's a l"ong oil varnish" and thus not as durable, nor as hard, nor as water resistant as the true interior (short oil varnish) finishes.


Just to clarify what Conrad is saying...

When wiping the excess stain from the project the idea is to remove the excess stain not buff it till it's dry. It is OK to leave a bit of stain pigment "in" the wood pores just don't leave stain sitting "on" the surface.

You can leave a bit more "gel stain" ON the surface because gel stains have more "binder" in them to make them stick on the wood.

[Jane Koepsel]

I thought the helmsman (spar) was better for water resistance, thus I wanted to use it around my sink (I'm a slob when it comes to water). Not wanting a difference in sheen, I figured I'd put it on all the cabinets. The can said better for water resistance - can't trust any companies anymore!

I'm not having to match any other cabinets, just the veneer beadboard panel insert around the oak frame and sides that are the same veneer.

I will pick up some regular polyurethane and gel stain and see if it goes better.

Now I'm worried about getting the color I want (very dark to black w/ black grain) on the oak.

Any experience with dyes? (Read a little about them on-line.)

I was also going to try some of the polyshade (stain and polyurethane in one) but looks like Home Depot discontinued the dark colors. I'm not keen on how that stuff looks on the samples in the store, but do you think that would be worth trying?

Wish there was a store near me (besides the big box) that was knowledgeable about this stuff - makes me yearn for the good old days.

Thanks a bunch, this is the best info I've gotten and I've done a lot of research on the net.

[Todd Carpenter]

Hi Jane,

Any experience with dyes? (Read a little about them on-line.)

I am becoming more and more of a fan of dyes the more I work with them. I'm like you in that I've been using the MinWax stuff for years because the big box stores carry them. Many of the folks on this board are not fans of MinWax and I'm starting to get why. Dyes really compliment my lack of patience in that the Alcohol based dyes dry almost instantly and I can get to clear coating much sooner than with stains (which have been giving a lot of grief lately).

I've been using the NGR Aniline dyes for wood with great success. Since you're trying to do black, dye is probably the best way to go.

I was also going to try some of the polyshade (stain and polyurethane in one) but looks like Home Depot discontinued the dark colors. I'm not keen on how that stuff looks on the samples in the store, but do you think that would be worth trying?

I think you answered your own question here - don't bother - if you're here on this site, your already in the advanced class and aren't going to be happy with the beginner stuff.

But since it's black, which the toughest of all the colors to match (believe it or not) you'll need to be prepared to add some India ink to your clear coat to tone it in. If you do a quick search on in the finishing forum here, you'll find several people who have used India ink to dye their pieces and then some that have put it in their clear coats as well.

You mentioned you wanted it very dark, and the only way to really get that deep look is to add it your first coat or two of clear and then your final coats have no ink in them.

I know you're debating the gloss/semi-gloss/stain issue too. For that, I'm a gloss guy all the time because I can always take the sheen down, when I finish, but if you've got lots of nooks and crannies, it's tough to bring a sheen down without a lot of work, but I have heard of (and I haven't done this myself) people starting with a gloss and then final coat is a satin or semi-gloss. I still have no idea why, but I think the lesson here is you could take your sheen down this way also.

Sorry for the long post -
HTH
Todd

[Jane Koepsel]

I went to a place called Woodcraft, they had some General Finishes brand products. Will be trying their water based stain and Arm-R-Seal top coat. Any opinions on their products?

[Howard Acheson]

Non-gloss finishes contain flatteners that need to be thoroughly mixed into suspension. For the initial use stir 100 strokes in one direction and then 100 strokes in the other keeping your stirrer in contact with the bottom of the can. Re-stir every 5-10 minutes during application.

The white stuff you see in the can when you first open it are the unstirred flatteners.

When you apply the finish and it leaves areas a sort or cloudy, gray, it a strong indication of the above problem.

The good news is that the final sheen is determined by the final coat. Buy a new can of finish, thoroughly stir it and apply a coat following the directions on the can. Let it dry and see how it looks.

On a somewhat different subject, there was/is no value in using an exterior poly varnish indoors. The thing that makes it an exterior product is the additon of UV inhibitors (unneccessary inside) and additional oil to make it softer and more flexible. Exterior finishes need to be flexible so they remain attached to substrates the rapidly flex due to changing outdoor conditions. But, the extra oil, actually reduces the water and water vapor resistance of the finish. The best, most water resistant and most durable finish is an interior rated varnish or poly varnish.

[Tony Bilello]

MInwax is the crapiest of the crap you will ever find. If it's sold in a discount house, it is crap. I would suggest you go to regular paint stores like Sherwin Wiiliams or contact local cabinet shops and find out where they get their finish supplies. I can almost guarantee it is not from Home Depot.

[Michael Pyron]

flattening additives work by floating to the surface of the finish and creating a microscopically rough surface...what this does is cause the light to diffuse as it reflects as opposed to acting like a mirror...this satin effect can be reduced by rubbing on the finish as that will smooth out the 'roughness' and make it reflect light more like a mirror...a good example is a guitar neck that has been satin finished...after years of playing it will become more and more glossy from the rubbing your hand will give it...

adding layers and layers of a satin finish will cause cloudiness as those little tiny silica balls are also IN the finish...a good suggestion for wanting a thick finish build with lots of layers is to use a gloss finish for all of the under coats and use satin for the last 1 or 2 coats....

as others have mentioned, proper mixing (stirring) is essential...

I might have missed it, but I don't think you made any mention of how long you let the stain dry before applying the finish over it...I really don't give a flip about what minwax says on the can, I've found that you should let their stain products sit for a week before applying an oil based finish over them...with lacquer I've found that a couple of days usually suffices as lacquer reacts with oil as opposed to mixing with it...funny concept, but the best I can put it...or perhaps saying lacquer tends to burn off any residual mineral spirits is more appropriate...either way, for minwax penetrating stain/sealer stuff I've found waiting a bare minimum of 36 hours to be required before applying lacquers, though I've carefully wiped on some of their #209 natural and shot lacquer over it 24 hours later and had no issues...

I know there was a time when I was pre-finishing some baseboard I had manufactured and 3 days after I stained it still appeared a tad wet...I had a schedule and took the pieces out into the nice hot Texas sun and let them sit for a bit (carefully watching them I assure you!)...solvents started 'boiling' out pretty quick, and I wiped them away as they appeared...I took the pieces back into the garage and let them cool down and shot lacquer over them and that worked just fine...

the point being, stains often need a long time to dry and the cloudiness you are seeing just might be an interaction between the solvents remaining in the wood and the material you were applying over it...

[Jane Koepsel]

Michael, yes I let the stain dry at least 24 hrs., and like you said, a few wet spots would seem to puddle to the surface which I wiped off, but then I still applied the polyurethane, some dried longer and I do have one box and 2 drawers which are done and look ok- maybe the ones that dried longer. Maybe they weren't dry enough? Minwax lost a customer though.

I am going to try the 2 coats of gloss GF's Arm-R-Seal and 2 coats of satin on top. And I'm going to try the water-based stain. Minwax swore their's was clear and shouldn't get cloudy even with several coats. When I called Arm-R-Seal they gave me the same advice.

I must say that the instructions provided by the companies is really inadequate and they a have web sites to tell you all this. Year's ago I'd get my stuff from a small store and you could get info there.

Thanks (everyone), I think now I have some good info to get started off on the right foot. I'll post how it goes.

Back to stripping!

[Sam Layton]

Jane,

A word of caution with the GF water base stain. I built a bathroom vanity and used the GF water base stain. Nothing but problems. I tried to stain the face frame on a 48" vanity. The stain dried so fast that you could not stain it evenly. I had dark spots, light spots, and the more I tried to fix it the worse it got.

My opinion is the the water base stain Is OK if you just have a small surface with no detail to stain. The samples I did were OK because they were only about 5" X 12". But, when you start getting into detail work it dries to fast.

I had to sand the vanity down, and start over. I then used GF oil base stain and it worked out great. The stain went on fine and did not dry to fast. It allowed me to stain the entire vanity and wipe it down.

I then waited about a week to let the oil base stain dry completely. Then I applied GF water base pre-cat sanding sealer, then GF water base pre-cat urethane. It turned out great.

I like the GF products. However, I do not like the water base stain. I am going to build my kitchen and use it on the kitchen. The bath vanity was a trial run, if you will. I can not imaging doing a complete kitchen with the water base stain.

I don't know if the Arm R Seal would be OK for a kitchen or not.

Sam

[Jane Koepsel]

Well I finally finished (almost) my cabinets. I put them all up, however, two of the sides (of course, the ones that are most noticeable) I cannot get rid of the streaking. I tried restripping and starting over, buffing, mixing in some gloss, thinning, etc. with no luck. I'd give myself a "C", but others said they look great and I told them to be honest. I'm also a bit of a perfectionist so maybe my true grade would be a "B".

My experience with General Finishes products, except the satin, was absolutely great. The water-based stain did dry pretty quick here in AZ. I had to thin it and keep going over parts I had done to keep them wet. I can see how doing a large piece would be difficult.

I loved the Gloss Arm-R-Seal!!! Wipe on was so much better than the brush on's even if you need to apply more coats. Word of Caution: use extreme caution when sanding between coats because the coats are very thin and easy to sand through. In fact use fine steel wool and a light touch, especially on the first few coats. I even sanded through using 500 grit sand paper.

The satin, including other brands, are another story. Sometimes it would turn out beautiful, and others like I said above are impossible - I just don't get it. Maybe the manufacturers of poly's can come up with a solution to the streaking/flattening agents and still get a satin or matte finish. I almost wish I'd use a lacquer to get a satin finish. When I put the cabinets up, most of the streaking can't really be seen unless you are looking for it in the right light.

We'll see how the finish holds up with wear, but I definitely liked the wipe on will use when I do my bathrooms cabinets - I'm definitely not going go satin on those - it's way too frustrating - maybe I'll try semi-gloss, though that, too will have that flattening agent in it.

Thanks for everyone's help! I'm going to look for the finest steel wool I can find to buff gloss on the 2 bad sides that are so noticeable.

Big project, but WOW!!! did I save $$$$ not buying new cabinets. I have a new layout, with almost new cabinets, in ebony! If it weren't for the satin problem, it would have been a very easy and much faster project. Would highly recommend it to someone instead of buying new cabinets! Just don't attempt or be prepared with satin finishes!