Canadians: tell us about your health care system

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Uh Darius,

I suggest before you call Dan's referenced document provided IIRC by the CBO....full of lies or errors, you research what the definitions of those countries was at the time of the research. His document was from 1992 and may have been perfectly accurate in 1992. Now in 17 years it's very possible some of the countries have changed their references. The document you referenced was from 2009.

Beyond that.....explain to me why if someone decides to have 10 children and it is a decision, I or anyone else should have to finance their obvious irresponsibility? If you can't afford 10 children, why continue to have them unless you are looking for some form of socialized financial support or don't have enough selfdiscipline to take measures to prevent the pregnancy. And then you want to lay a guilt trip on me for their failure to control themselves?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

That 17 year old document is a Congressional Budget Office document that resides at a US govenment site. I would suggest it was probably considered accurate for the time it was written but certainly is outdated and the one Darius cited is probably curently more accurate and appropriate.

To everyone in general and nobody in particular:

I will caution everyone from being uncivil....making wild personal accusations, insinuations or becoming political.

This thread is walking a very tight line of being political and at the first sign will be closed by myself or one of the other Moderators. Keep in mind that politics includes international politics.

I feel these type of subjects can be discussed but you have to keep emotions out of them. Too many mistakes are made today because everyone wants to surround themselves with a nodding mass when I believe dissenters can provide an interesting perspective and often point out mistakes in the subjects being discussed.

[Doug Mason]

As a society, I think it reprehensible that we ration healthcare based upon "ability-to-pay."

The healthcare debate in many respects mirrors the debate on the US tax structure--a debate in which one political party wants no capital gains tax (a tax on wealth), but rather wants a user-based tax system (sales tax, prop tax, user fees, tax on wages, etc). And you have these middle-class people who support this user-based tax structure despite the fact that it is going to raise their taxes and reduce the taxes of the wealthy--and they are too ignorant to see this!

So to is it with healthcare. One political party wants to maintain the "status quo" with our current system based on "ability to pay" and is going to extremes to avoid any change. And yet you have a large part of the middle class who concur with this--which to me is inexplicable!

No system is perfect; but health care should not be a "for-profit" industry.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

So how do we pay for it?

The last estimate I saw on the US national debt was nearly 12 trillion dollars. Other countries are already squeemish about continuing to lend the US money. Some countries are even suggesting the US dollar no longer be the accepted global monetary standard because of our financial woes.

If we are going to nationalize healthcare, how can we reasonably and RESPONSIBLY pay for it in a way that won't effect the entire financial system of this country?

Over a decade ago, political pressures were applied and financial institutions were "encouraged" to change the accepted lending standards of the time and make the American Dream more accessible to more people. Look at the current housing crisis and banking problems that have sucked money from the public treasury. This is in no way related to current politics.....it started over decade ago.

While it may seem morally superior, I think it's irrational and financially irresponsible to legislate a nationalized healthcare system without a well thought out, realistic and reasonable method to pay for it.

[Neal Clayton]

we covered that already.

take the profit out. there is no need for a hospital to turn a profit. there is no need for a middle man between patient and doctor. eliminate those and you'll find the system is "paid for" quite easily, by people paying less than they're paying now for health insurance toward a medicare-ish national health program.

that's how the other countries do it. that's how it works.

but like i said, wake me when congressmen who have been paid a million dollars each by the health insurance lobby are willing to stand in front of that podium and state to a camera and microphone that there's no room for profiteering in health insurance if we're serious about providing health insurance to all citizens.

[Mike Henderson]

So how do we pay for it?

The last estimate I saw on the US national debt was nearly 12 trillion dollars. Other countries are already squeemish about continuing to lend the US money. Some countries are even suggesting the US dollar no longer be the accepted global monetary standard because of our financial woes.

If we are going to nationalize healthcare, how can we reasonably and RESPONSIBLY pay for it in a way that won't effect the entire financial system of this country?

Over a decade ago, political pressures were applied and financial institutions were "encouraged" to change the accepted lending standards of the time and make the American Dream more accessible to more people. Look at the current housing crisis and banking problems that have sucked money from the public treasury. This is in no way related to current politics.....it started over decade ago.

While it may seem morally superior, I think it's irrational and financially irresponsible to legislate a nationalized healthcare system without a well thought out, realistic and reasonable method to pay for it.

Of course, we're paying for health care now, one way or the other. The problem most people see with the present system is the inequities in the system. If you lose your job, once you've exhausted your COBRA you're thrown on the private market which discriminates against people. People who have paid for health care all their lives now can't get a policy when they need it.

What people want is a fairer health care system that allows people to depend on having health care. I don't think anyone is looking for free health care, but a more just system.

But before we get into how to pay for it, we need to decide what we really want in a health care system for the United States. Then we have to decide if we can pay for it, and if so, how.

Mike

[Darius Ferlas]

Uh Darius,

I suggest before you call Dan's referenced document provided IIRC by the CBO....full of lies or errors, you research what the definitions of those countries was at the time of the research. His document was from 1992 and may have been perfectly accurate in 1992. Now in 17 years it's very possible some of the countries have changed their references. The document you referenced was from 2009.

Ken, first, I did not use the words lies. The definitions may have been indeed different at that time. I admit I don't know but the onus is not really on me to prove that. I do know though that the report was commissioned and presented over 17 years ago by someone who was clearly biased against "socialized" medicine.

The reason I reject the document referenced by Dan is that it creates an impression about status quo while in fact status quo is different. I'm writing about what IS, not what WAS 17 years ago.

Beyond that.....explain to me why if someone decides to have 10 children and it is a decision, I or anyone else should have to finance their obvious irresponsibility? If you can't afford 10 children, why continue to have them unless you are looking for some form of socialized financial support or don't have enough selfdiscipline to take measures to prevent the pregnancy. And then you want to lay a guilt trip on me for their failure to control themselves?

I presented (and hopefully justified) my doubts about the validity of the document used by Dan. I also proposed the reasons why the society as a whole might want to agree to help those who are unable to help themselves.

Also, I didn't write what I did to lay guilt on anyone anymore than those rejecting public funding exercise guilt trips towards those who cannot afford hospital stays, medical procedures and medication.

It simply boggles my mind that a country, where about 75% of population is identified as Christian, has such a huge issue with what should be really a no brainer to them - help the less fortunate.

And by help I don't mean a quarter tossed into the Salvation Army jar in front of Walmart once a year, or a Made in China magnetic ribbon of one color or another attached the a car's bumper.

As for parent(s) with 10 kids, yes, some of them are irresponsible but apparently natural growth in the US does not indicate this to be a prevailing trend. Some loopholes and inefficiencies in any system are to be expected in any system.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

How have you covered it?

I fail to see how you have covered it. Someone quotes a figure from no particular source about how much an insurance executive made last year or over the past 5 years. Everyone immediately assumes that is enough to foot the bill for everybody's medical expenses. It won't begin to cover the medical expenses.

When you have a well thought out, financially responsible suggestion for a national healthcare system...call me...I'm in the phone book.....I'll back it in a flash.

[Rob Robinson VT]

I have been extremely fortunate in that the largest claim(s) I've ever made against any of the various health insurance policies under which I've been covered over the years have been for physical exams. I'm retired now and covered by Medicare but over the years the amounts spent by my employers and myself for medical insurance have to be well over a hundred thousand dollars, so there is no doubt that the health insurance industry has made something like a 90+% profit margin on me in the nearly 40 years since I got out of the military.

I'm not complaining about this as having insurance is the price we pay for the peace of mind gained by knowing that one illness or one accident won't wipe us out financially. It's that peace of mind that I strongly believe is the right of every American citizen and why I believe we need some serious reform of our health insurance situation. I don't propose to know what the "right" or "best" answer is but I think it's probably going to be some hybrid of what we have now and what the rest of the developed nations of the world have settled upon. I don't think that it's going to take legislation of nearly 2,000 pages to accomplish this or that it should result in any reduction in the quality of our health care.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Darius,

I quote your previous post.... So I checked the statistics and the document you link to. It turns out that some of the fundamental arguments in your statements are not true.

The document he linked and referenced is an official US government document from the Congressional Budget Office located at an official US government site and while the information might be incorrect, I suspect it was thought to be accurate at the time.

I agree that the document you referenced is probably more accurate, timely and appropriate.

Don't think I am hard hearted. I have supported myself since age 15 when I started working on oil rigs for my father. I was drafted in '68...met and married a young divorcee....adopted her two children from previous marriage and we had one more. My father never lived to see our youngest as he died on a rig floor 3 months before our youngest son's birth. My mother remarried 5 years after my fathers death and I help support my Mom and her husband today as they find it difficult to make ends meet on just social security. I just believe people need to be responsible for their actions. Anything less, encourages people to continue to be irresponsible.

My 3 kids...one is a local deputy sheriff a former 9 year Army veteran...my daughter...very beautiful and petite....a mother of 3 ...grandmother of 3......a college degree in automotive mechanics..she's worked for a sheriff's department and patroled as a police officer...currently she's working for a US airline company ...youngest son...college graduate...currently a 11 year Navy veteran.... a 3rd year dental student on Navy scholarship....

3 wonderful, responsible young adults. I am blessed.

I'm not really hard hearted...I just don't feel obligated to pay for other peoples' mistakes....if you buy a house that you can't afford...that is your problem....not mine.

Ask my daughter what happened when as a 16 year old HS junior, somebody passed her a beer and she took a drink from it with two uniformed police officers sitting in a marked car 30' away. One officer called me at home. As I drove her home my daughter said "Daddy...I'll get a job and pay for the lawyer." I said "Don't worry XXXXXXX. You don't need a lawyer to plead guilty...and if two cops say you're guilty...Lady you are guilty." She later set at the defense table by her lonesome. When the judge asked her how she pleaded she replied guilty. The judge stated they'd done a background check and this was her first and only offense (illegal consumption by a minor) and he was fining her $13.50 with $36.50 court costs..she could pay the bailiff now or go to jail until she could pay. "Can you pay now?". When her head snapped around to look at her mother and I sitting at the back of the court room, laughter erupted within the court and I thought the judge was going to fall off the bench. I,of course, nodded yes. She learned a valuable lesson that day...all 3 of my kids did. And I have 3 young responsible adult children. They are extremely generous too!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

Something needs to be done...take Heather's case....there should be someway for someone to carry insurance even if they change jobs.....

It really is complex......

Take catastophic coverage....so we pass a bill that covers catastrophic coverage...who decides what is covered. Suppose it's me and my family loves me so much that even though I've had a massive stroke and the sugeon says he can do surgery...relieve pressure on the brain but I will always be in a vegetative state...never again to interact as a human being as we know it. Who decides what medical treatment....how long it will continue.....whether or not it will be discontinued......Who will decide?
We actually had that decision stare us in the face 4 years ago when my FIL had a massive stroke. I pray my family will have the same strength to make the same tough decision in the event I fall victim to the same predicament. And we allow someone to remain on ventilators and other machines forever?...who decides?

It's not black and white....it's really complex.....

That is just one of many complex problems that need to be considered prior to passing national healthcare legislation.....

[Eric Larsen]

Folks,

Something needs to be done...take Heather's case....there should be someway for someone to carry insurance even if they change jobs.....

And that's why we need to do something right freakin' now. There are a lot of people who simply cannot wait while our legislative branch wrings its hands and counts beans.

There is a human cost to this debate. That cost outweighs any financial cost. Who among us has the gall to tell someone who needs a transplant that they should not receive it because a hospital administrator needs to buy a Lear? This is ridiculous. Let's fix it.

How will we pay for all of this?

1) Tax the hell out of junk food -- soda, potato chips, Big Macs, Hot Pockets, and all the rest of the crap that is making the US the most obese nation on the planet. Alcohol and tobacco are already heavily taxed. Pepsi and Coca Cola are lobbying-up big time because they know where this is heading. Taxing the hell out of junk food will reduce obesity, and therefore heart disease, diabetes, and cancer (study the link between obesity and cancer -- it ain't pretty.)

2) Remove profit from the health care equation. It's not working. It hasn't worked for decades. Too many good people have died for want of treatment. That is unacceptable. The first-person stories shared here only reinforce my opinion that making a profit on human suffering isn't just wrong. It's evil.

3) Reallocate expenditures. We've spent more money trying to make Iraq and Afghanistan "free" (and they don't seem to want us there, so why bother) than we would on fixing health care. That money would better be spent at home, taking care of our own.

Everyone should have the right to some sort of baseline of health care. The wealthy can spend extra for nose jobs and private physicians. They're doing that now, so no big deal.

Any taxpayers reading this? Great! All taxpayers are already paying for indigent health care -- every time an indigent person shows up at the emergency room at the county hospital, we're paying for it through our property taxes. We're spending the money ANYWAY, so let's create a better system.

Our first line of attack should be beefing up the urgent care centers -- that way families that have a child running a high fever have someplace to go other than the emergency room. ER visits cost a BUNCH more than urgent care visits. Everyone knows that. So let's make urgent care the first responder. Every dollar we spend on this will save at least three.

Next we need to get the pharmaceuticals in line. It is ridiculous that people buy medicine in Canada and Mexico because it's one-tenth the price it is here. Fix this.

Most importantly, we need a change of attitude. Suggest that we cut medicare and all the seniors will scream bloody murder -- even though medicare is socialized medicine. These same seniors scream bloody murder when we suggest that we give everyone the same plan that they already enjoy. Unacceptable. And frankly it's hypocritical beyond belief.

[Anthony Scira]

Where do you stand on profits for the funeral industry? How about profits that attorneys make on human misery? How about profits from sales of food? Food is a necessity afterall. Where to you draw the line and say this group can make a profit, but this group can't? Why would anyone sell or produce anything if there was no incentive to do so?

Funeral industry ??? Really ??? Well that is an optional expense. If I want to be buried in a Kiss Casket that's up to me.

Food is already highly regulated, try opening a restaurant.

As far as the mother of 3 goes, well you just have to show some compassion for the kids. They were born into the situation and to deny them coverage is not "American"

It is in our best interest to care for our fellow citizens.

Its sad to see how we have become a Nation of "what do I get out of it?"

And I guess if the "Reform" passes when asked "what did I get out of it?" I can say we live in a Country that will not turn its back on each other in out REAL time of need.

Will people abuse the system ? Sure. Someone always does. But that should not be a reason to not do something.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll just add a comment about children, in response to Belinda's earlier comment. Children don't have any say about who their parents are. Unless you're willing to punish the children for the sins of the parents, we (as a country) need to do our best to see that children get health care even if their parents can't afford to pay for it.

If you want to advocate for responsibility in choosing how many children to have, or making sure the parents can afford the children, please do so. But once the child is born, we should not deny that child health care because the parents didn't listen to you.

Mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

And now the politics begin and this thread is just about 1/2 second from closing...

once again Erik you want to tax...tax...tax.....and the businesses and the people go BYE......BYE.....BYE. You wanted to raise taxes for the environment...now free medical.....raise taxes......

Now Eric, how would you feel about a national compassionate home program where we provide at no cost homes to every American. Of course, we won't need realtors and the building contractors will be expect to incurr and not get paid for their services or expenses but still provide their services. Hogwash!

First I don't have a clue where you get the idea MY property taxes are paying for indigent health care. That may be true where you live but....here hospitals eat that expense inititially, write some of it off on taxes and pass the difference on as higher fees to me and my insurance company.

Some folks like to "tout" Medicare as a great financial model for healthcare. Let me tell you a FACT...in some cases, Medicare doesn't even pay the cost that the hospital incurs when they perform a diagnostic exam.....I'm not talking about cutting into any perceived profit...What Medicare pays doesn't cover the cost incurred to perform the exam....and what does the hospital do....those $3 boxes of Kleenex with 4 sheets in them you and your insurance company get charged for...it helps make up for what Medicare doesn't pay.....

Don't drag Iraq and Afghanistan into this argument. That will make it political and get this thread closed. They are short term problems and nationalized healthcare is something that if legislated needs a long term financial solution that our own Congress can't meddle with as they have so underhandedly done with social security for more than 40 years.

Anthony....In my America, people are responsible for their actions. Let the lady get a job. Let's don't make it too easy or people will flock there by the millions to enjoy the rewards. I can suggest a current failed model for such financial irresponsibilities if you'd like.