Pocket Hole Joinery Flush Problem(s)

[Don Brubaker]

Been using pocket hole joinery for awhile and every time I use it I seem to have a problem with the pieces flushing out on the face. Yes, I use the Kreg clamps - both the 90° in the drilled pocket hole and regular for holding it flat to the surface ..... but ....... always seems to be a variable result with more times than not the face being slightly offset on one side of the joint from the other due to the screws at an angle in the pocket. Perhaps I need to REALLY crank down on the clamps?
Any others having similar problems ...... or solutions. I know this is a very popular method, and I do love it, but am frustrated with the seeming lack of repeatable accuracy and flush face joints if I don't pay REAL CLOSE attention to each and every joint (which should be done anyway!).
Feedback, comments, ideas greatly appreciated!

[Mike Heidrick]

Using pocket hole specific screws?

[Bob Carreiro]

Are you clamping the material flush before screwing?
To me, if it's flush at clamp-up, it'll be flush when the clamps are removed.
Post the fix when you get it.
Bob

[Joe Scharle]

The clamps do need to be able to resist any torguing action of the screw. IOW, clamp the #@%$ out of it!

[Kev Godwin]

I had a similar thing happen a few years ago when I didn't clamp tight enough. I was getting a little side drift due to the rings in the wood slightly moving the screw upon entry into the other piece. It only happened to me on wood with distinct growth rings. By clamping tighter, I didn't have it ever happen again.

If you need to Kreg screw 2 pieces that are different thicknesses, you can use a number of playing cards as shims to make the pieces the same thickness for clamping.
Kev

[Jamie Buxton]

Yeah, they do that. My theory is that the two pieces aren't quite tight together when you drive the screw in, so when it tightens up, it drags one piece sideways. One solution is to be very careful you have them clamped together, and make sure you have them clamped at 90 degrees. Another solution is to use something which refuses to let the pieces shift -- a dado or the like. You can even clamp another piece of wood on temporarily.

[glenn bradley]

To Mike's question; most folks reporting this problem are using the wrong screws. The un-threaded part of the shaft on your pocket hole screw should pass through the joint just prior to the head making contact and torque being applied.

pocket hole screw.png

If the threads pass through the joint as torque is applied, the joint will skew.

[Mark Rios]

I've used the Kreg Master kit for 4 years or so now, mostly for making face frames for kitchen and bath remodel jobs. I too found this problem early on. After some trial and error I've found a procedure that does in fact eliminate the movement, for me anyway.

After applying the glue I align the joint as I want it and then clamp directly over the joint. I use the Kreg Premium face clamp pictured below.

41Td7qVDhVL._SL500_AA280_.jpg I align the center of the round faces with the joint and I do use quite a bit of pressure. Not so much that it makes it hard to remove the clamp or for it to dent the wood but pressure just short of that.

Then I use a Bessey K body clamp and clamp from the ends. (In other words, if the Premium clamp is putting pressure on the "Y" axis then the Bessey is clamping on the "X" axis, if that makes sense.)

Yes, it a little PIA, but it does guarantee that my joint is flush.

Also, depending on the width of the material and how many screws I use, I will align the clamp closer to the screw that I'm putting in and then move the clamp over to try to maximize the pressure.


hth

[Karl Brogger]

Kreg jig holes are at a pretty steep angle.

Best thing that I did was actually clamping both piece, with one clamp, down to something flat. I'd throw a 4x8 sheet of 3/4" down and work off of one edge.
I think most of the clamp pressure needs to be placed on the piece that is getting screwed into, not the piece the screw goes through. The piece that is getting screwed wants to lift up. I use a pnuematic clamp and a Castle machine for putting faceframes together, I'm about positive that the pnuematic clamp isn't putting as much pressure on the joint as the vise-grip style clamps I used to use.

Most of the time you will not get perfectly flush joints, or it really isn't worth the time messing with it to get it perfect when its just a sander away from being flat.

Also, how deep are you setting the stop on the bit, and how long of a screw are you using? You typically don't need more than 11/16" of the screw sticking out of the piece with the pocket cut in it. Unless you're using a softer wood, (alder, poplar, pine, etc.), the fine thread screws seem to work the best.

[Thomas Pender]

+1 - it is always a matter of force, but the K body clamps seem to do it for me. I still get an unsatisfactory result once in a while, but far fewer than I used to.

[David Werkheiser]

You may be drilling too deep, I was complaining to a Kreg rep at a show about the same problem and he said that the depth stop wasn't set right. He said to drill a pocket and saw it length wise, there should be a 1/8" (thickness of a nickle) of undrilled wood left. I made this change and it helped.
DaveW

[Don Brubaker]

Yes, using all Kreg stuff - screws, clamps, etc.

Though clamping does seem to be the key, clamping the *($$%%% out of the pieces sometimes brings another adverse effect of marring, though on the back side usually.

The biggest issue seems to be when the screw goes in the pocket hole, even though securely clamped, the angled driving of the screw inevitably "wants" to "unflush" the two pieces and has a fair amount of force due to the angle.

Granted, 85% or so of the time it works fine. Just seems like I don't trust the joint to come out flush without having to spend an inordinate time worrying and checking it three times.
Probably exaggerating a bit. But it is causing me to wonder if this is "the best" system for high quality cabinets. It is fast (not taking into consideration the "issue") and rarely do I have to check for squareness.

Thanks for the feedback so far.
Appreciate more.

Wondering if there are any professional cabinet makers out there that have some "secrets"?

[Don Brubaker]

Well, unless Kreg is telling me the wrong screws to use, I'm using the ones they recommend, so that shouldn't be the problem. Can't speak to the issue of threaded and unthreaded portion, except again, using all of Kreg's spec's for drilling and screwing.
Just seems to be an inherent "flaw" in this system making it somewhat less than "fool proof" (not sure if I'm the fool though!!!)

To Mike's question; most folks reporting this problem are using the wrong screws. The un-threaded part of the shaft on your pocket hole screw should pass through the joint just prior to the head making contact and torque being applied.

pocket hole screw.png

If the threads pass through the joint as torque is applied, the joint will skew.

[frank shic]

the pocket holes that are routed by either a porter cable pocket hole cutter or steve clardy's invention produces far less creepage. make sure the two pieces are the same thickness btw. i use the kreg when dead-on accuracy isn't absolutely necessary.

[Karl Brogger]

Wondering if there are any professional cabinet makers out there that have some "secrets"?

Yeah, don't use a Kreg jig.

Don, I don't know your circumstances, but if you're doing this professionally start saving your pennies for a Castle Machine. They're made somewhere in California, and right now around here they're selling for about $1500 used. Which is a bit more than half of what they are new. Kreg jigs are a bit of cruel joke compared to the better systems, with that said I went three years in my shop using one. It took a long time for me to get to the point that I could justify the Castle machine, but it didn't take long at all to pay for itself. Don't bother with their assembly table, there's much better options out there for less money on the used market. Unique, and Ritter have some excellent tables. I paid $1100 for a used 5'x12' table last year, they're about $7500 new.


I don't agree with setting the depth so there is only and 1/8" of material remaining. Not arguing that is what the Kreg-rep said, but that doesn't leave much for the screw to "clamp" with, especially on end grain. Any screw much longer than an inch will also start giving you splitting issues when close to the end of the piece also.