Staining Maple, Part II

[Scott Parks]

Thanks to all who suggested staining my maple vanity with dye. Update on project....
This is the first attempt with Minwax...

So then I stripped it down.

This time I used blood red alcohol dye. It is still blotchy. The Sample on the left is 2 coats of dye, 3 coats of Laquer. Right side is 1 coat dye, 2 coats Laquer.

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong? Do I need to use a conditioner with alcohol dye? Or should I just accept the fact that maple does not stain well?

I think from now on I'll go au natural.... I guess maple shouldn't be stainded.

[Jim Becker]

Alcohol-based dyes are best applied by spraying...the alcohol flashes off so fast it's hard to get an even coloration when you wipe it on. And it doesn't matter what species you're working on in that respect! Try scrubbing your samples down with an alcoho-soaked rag (with good ventilation!) to see if you can even it out. The dye will redisolve with when wetted this way. The other issue with alcohol-based dye is if you try to brush shellac over it. Since shellac is also alcohol soluable, the dye will "move".

For hand application water-based dyes are best. They tend to look "not great" right after application, but a seal coat of dewaxed shellac before you move on to your clear coat of choice brings out a remarkable change and a really clear natural look. For your project, I suggest garnet shellac for a little richness. When you use water based dye, be sure to raise the grain first, knock it down with a VERY light sanding with 320 wet and dry paper after it dries, apply the dye and knock down any additional "fuzzies" with 320 after it dries...only very, very light strokes with the paper. Clean it off with mineral spirits and then do your shellac seal coat.

If you are able to work with your existing alcohol-based dye, Target Coatings now has a water-based shellac product that might safely coat over it as a sealer before you move on in your finishing regimen.

[Scott Parks]

The salesman at woodcraft talked me into the alcohol dye because he said I would have problems with the water dyes after stripping the wood because of the residue from the previous minwax. However, I didn't use any chemical stripper, just planer, jointer, scraper, and belt sander... So, is it probably safe to use water dyes? Also, I couldn't find the water dye in this color, and I don't feel like going through trial-and-error to mix colors. I've now spent more time trying to stain this project than I spent building it.

I do have Target's sealer and Laquer from a previous project. I was planning on using it, after a coat of shellac. However, once again, the guy at woodcraft talked me into Laquer. I'd rather use the Target, because now I have a whopping headache from the Laquer...
Maybe I should tint the Laquer with the dye?

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like you need a new salesman, although had you used the stripper, his advice on the dye would have been good on that one point. But since you removed your previous finish mechanically, the water-based dyes should be fine as long as your oil finish is "gone". You can source them from many places, including Homestead Finishing (Jeff Jewitt). Target even carries some of Jeff's TransTint dyes.

If you like the Target Coatings finishes...use them. There is no reason to use solvent-based lacquer if you have discomfort with it. That's why I don't touch the stuff...'can't stand the smell, nor do I have appropriate conditions to use it safely. TC even has a new water-based shellac in blond, orange and garnet. I just bought some to use on the armoire project and am looking forward to it.

You can tint the TC WB products with TransTint to use as a toner. Try a small quanitity on scrap of the same material you built your project with. One should ALWAYS do that before starting a finish on a real project! Mr. Murphy will love you "big-time" otherwise...

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

I think you are on the right track w/alcohol dye. The reason is that it dries very quicky. The trick is to spray light enough to avoid having it penetrate the differing grain patterns. You can setup to spray the dye for about $10.

Lowes, harbor frieght and others have aersol cans that can use compressed air, or power catridges (don't require air) that you can use to spray whatever thin liquid you desire.

I don't think water based dye will eliminate all your blotching on maple. If you really want to hand apply rather then spray, try something like bartleys gel stain.

After you apply the alcohol dye, seal it with a light coat of some oil based product (blo,tung oil,thinned varnish...) before applying shellac by hand. Use a light touch when you apply the oil, don't flood. Just use a fairly wet cloth for application. You can also apply the first coats of shellac by spraying. Cut it to about a 3/4# and lightly mist with the spray thing you bough for the dye. This first coat needs to be pretty dry to avoid redesolving the dye.

Practice on scraps ! The dye you have already applied can be mostly removed with rags and lots of clean alcohol. Since the color is correct, you don't need a perfect job of removal and I don't think you will need to bleach.

[Scott Parks]

I have some aerosol pump bottles that will mist the dye. I'll try that. I don't have access to buying another dye until next week. Where I live in Idaho, I have no suppliers of stain other than Lowes / Depot or mail order. I spend most of my week in Denver, where I went to Woodcraft, but my tools and projects are in Idaho.

Anyway, after I apply the alcohol dye again, (I'm testing on the backs of my drawer faces now), can I use Target's sealer over the dye? Or do I have to buy something else? I can get premixed Shellac at Depot, or what if I thin some Laquer?

[Jim Becker]

Scott, you can use the Target sealer with no problem over the dye.

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

I don't the particulars on target's sealer. The main thing you want to avoid is getting the raw dyed surface very wet with your sealer, or working it mechanically hard (lot's of rubbing, hard rubbing ect.).

The wetness (water, oil or whatever, esp. alcohol) can cause the dye to move around and/or migrate into the first layers of the top coat. If you get one spot on heavy, it takes longer to dry and more dye moves then the dryer areas and you get an uneven finish.

Apply your first top coats after the dye very sparingly, and gently. I would typically just wipe on a little ms thinned oil varnish. In a rush, misting on shellac locks in the dye. The shellac is just a bit risky. If you get it on to thick in a spot, you might mess up the dye job. If you use an oil product to lock the dye and you want to use a WB topcoat, it needs to dry well then top it off with shellac and then WB.

My results with WB on top of dye have always shown the WB to lift the dye and move it around to much. After I started the job over a couple of times because of this, I always seal the dye with something before WB topcoat goes on.

Your mileage will vary. The speed you work the finish with, your tools, and where you have the most practice will dictate your final personal finish schedule.

Misting the dye will cure your #1 problem, uneven stain penetration by avoiding most all surface penetration.

Your next problem will be keeping the dye in place. Keep this goal in mind as you decide what is the best next step.

Good luck

[Jim Becker]

Eric, for the most part, the Target Coatings products are designed for spraying. They do have a brush on top coat product now, but it's new.

[Scott Parks]

Thanks guys for your input. Here's what I did today....
Sanded to 150 grit. Applied Daly's Benite wood conditioner (found at local paint store). Next, I applied one coat of Behlen's blood red alcohol dye, applied with the aerosol bottle. Then I rubbed it out with a cloth. Next I applied 3 coats of Target sealer, thinned 50%. Then I put on 3 coats of Target Gloss... Then I added a fourth coat of gloss with a couple drops of green food color to tone down the red... Worked great, hope this wont affect the finish.

On the picture, the left side is one coat of dye, the right side is 2 coats dye. The streak in the right side is due to sanding after applying the dye. I used a heat gun after every process just to speed up the samples. I won't do this on the final project. I made 4 different samples with different techniques....

I'll post a pic when the whole thing is done! LOML will be happy to have her Master Bath done!

[Chuck Fischer]

I think that looks amazing! I really never thought maple could look like that. Beautiful.

Chuck

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

Great job - very nice looking work. I would be inclined to add the green to the base coat of dye rather then the top coat. Just mix the red/green together. That way any sanding you have to accomplish on the top coat for leveling/dust removal won't run the risk of sanding thru the thin colored film.

And a couple of questions I would like to know for my own reference:
How did you apply the target sealer ? How much dye did the sealer lift up on you - did the rag/brush turn very dark ? Is there a name for the product other then "sealer".

[Scott Parks]

And a couple of questions I would like to know for my own reference:
How did you apply the target sealer ? How much dye did the sealer lift up on you - did the rag/brush turn very dark ? Is there a name for the product other then "sealer".

Eric,

Hmm... I bought it three years ago... If I recall, http://www.targetcoatings.com/produc...s/em_8800.html. It is their EmTech 8800 universal Waterborne Sealer. Their salesman recomended it. I thinned it 50% with water. And I think the topcoat is the EmTech U9300 Polycarbonate Uerethan Top coat. I'm not sure because the can is not labled. All TC was brushed on. I kept brushing on the sealer until it did not bleed anymore. This was three coats. The bleeding was minimal, because I put on the first coat very lightly with one brush stroke. Don't overbrush the first two coats. The brush barely picked up any dye, and I kept washing it clean so it wouldn't contaminate my jar of sealer. Also, I only let the dye dry for about an hour, and then cooked it with the heat gun. Then I put the gloss on. By quick drying with the heat gun, it left brush strokes. But when I used this before on my kitchen table, I beleive I used about 4 coats of sealer, and 2 or 3 top coats to build up thickness. Then I wet sanded with 600 grit, and finally polished with "car polish". Looked like a mirror for about 6 months, until my 2 year old stabbed it repeatedly with a fork.... Yes, it was meant to spray, not brush. It will not lay perfect with a brush. That is why I put on so many coats and wet sanded. Also, I had a durability problem for first week. Put a turkey roaster on it on top of damp towel. The heat and dampness softened the finish and turned it milky. E-mailed Target and asked why. They said it was designed to be baked in a kiln after applied. So I worked over the table with a hair dryer for about a half hour. The milky spot dissapeared. It is rock hard now. Three years later, no durability issues! This will take the abuse!
Hope this rambling makes sense...

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

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