using a strop

[Mark Roderick]

I doubt it Mark because I think there are other important attributes to a honing stone beyond nominal grit size and I think these attributes apply to your scenario since you are essentially using a strop as a honing stone.

I'm not convinced that a haphazardly charged leather strop won't cut serrations (scratches) into the leading edge of a chisel or plane plane. This is the nasal spray analogy again. A serrated edge doesn't cut all that badly but it breaks down making you go back to the strop over and over again. Contrary to another poster's opinion, I think that will inevitably dub the edge and I frankly don't think it takes to many trips to the strop for this to happen.

My question remains - what do you lacking in your finishing stone causing you to feel the need to continue to abrade metal?

Sandy, the question you posed simply makes no sense in the context of this discussion. I asked you "If you would hone a blade on a .5 micron stone, why wouldn't you hone it on a .5 micron strop?" You respond "Why would you use a strop if you're doing the job correctly with a stone?" Your response is unresponsive.

You are putting the rabbit in the hat, and I'm not sure you even realize you're doing it. You are ASSUMING that honing on a stone and honing on a strop are fundamentally different, and that the stone is always preferable. I am asking you WHY honing on a .5 micron stone is different than honing on a .5 micron strop.

Let's say you've used your 8000 grit stone with perfect technique. For Christmas your wife gave you a 15000 grit stone. Would you use it?

And if you would use it conceptually, but you woke from your dream to learn that your wife did not give you a 15000 grit stone for Christmas (another necktie) why would you not use a .5 micron strop instead, thus improving the edge from your 3 micron stone?

See, it's just hard for me to understand why going from a 3 micron stone to a .5 micron strop doesn't improve the edge.

[Jeff Farris]

Mark,

You've asked a perfectly valid question that gets to the heart of this discussion, however, according to the Shapton site, 15000 grit = .92 micron. The only thing they offer close to .5 micron is the $500 30000 grit stone at .46 micron.

And people complain about Tormek prices.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I'm sure it cost a lot to develop such stone as their #30000 stone and I think one of the reasons it is very expensive is that majority of bladed tool users of all fields don't need it and they don't make and sell as many as lower grit stones. The highest stone I use is Shapton Pro #12000, and does wonderful job. I'm sure a stone in #30000's range would do something to the steel, but if anyone asked me if it's a must have item, I'd say no. It's in the territory of luxury for me and for many others, too, I assume. Even #12000 isn't a must have stone for the most part, but I like it and I'm happy with that.

Also, if anyone is wondering, all stones produce serrated edge. Just higher grit has less pronounced serration than the lower ones. Check out this PDF from Shapton. It's in Japanese, but doesn't matter. Small rectangle pictures on page 2 and 3 shows microscopic edge (that's a lot higher magnification than well known study done by Brent. Picture covers 0.0039"x0.0059" area). Corresponding grit number and grit size can be found just above each picture.

[Sandy Stanford]

Sandy, the question you posed simply makes no sense in the context of this discussion. I asked you "If you would hone a blade on a .5 micron stone, why wouldn't you hone it on a .5 micron strop?" You respond "Why would you use a strop if you're doing the job correctly with a stone?" Your response is unresponsive.

You are putting the rabbit in the hat, and I'm not sure you even realize you're doing it. You are ASSUMING that honing on a stone and honing on a strop are fundamentally different, and that the stone is always preferable. I am asking you WHY honing on a .5 micron stone is different than honing on a .5 micron strop.

Let's say you've used your 8000 grit stone with perfect technique. For Christmas your wife gave you a 15000 grit stone. Would you use it?

And if you would use it conceptually, but you woke from your dream to learn that your wife did not give you a 15000 grit stone for Christmas (another necktie) why would you not use a .5 micron strop instead, thus improving the edge from your 3 micron stone?

See, it's just hard for me to understand why going from a 3 micron stone to a .5 micron strop doesn't improve the edge.

We're going to have to agree to disagree since I find your assumption that any surface smeared with a nominally finer grit substance qualifies as a honing stone to be fallacious.

File it under: "Sandy doesn't hone plane blades and chisels on leather"

Perhaps to my disadvantage.

[Derek Cohen]

An important point about stropping has been overlooked.

Stropping on leather or MDF (to revitalise and edge, that is) is about convenience. Not many woodworkers have a dedicated sharpening area where they have easy access to their stones - which can be a messy affair. It is convenient to hang a strop under the bench, or nearby, and reach for it when the blade begins to dull.

Strops are not a substitute for stones. It is not about the grits available in paste form, or in diamond solutions, or cakes of rouge that may be used on leather or MDF more cheaply than a Shapton 30000. Charles (Sandy on this forum) is correct when he says that a strop will dub an edge where a stone is less likely to do so. But that is how strops work, and as long as they are used for revitalising an edge - which means that their lifespan in this regard has a finite number before returning to a stone - then they perform a valid task in my opinion.

In fact, Charles, using a plain leather strop to remove the wire edge, as you say you do, is likely to do harm since this can dub the edge of the blade.

I said earlier that I strop on either leather or a Shapton 12000 (my finest Shapton). I can do both because I do have a dedicated and accessible sharpening area in my workshop. For the past 12 months I have not needed to rely on a leather stop under the bench. Nevertheless, although I increasingly turn to the Shapton, I still pull out the strop with the green rouge, and it does the job perfectly well for that moment in time. But I think the point made by Charles is valid - a hard, flat surface is preferable to a soft, pliable surface.

The other point about strops is when they become substitutes for stones, such as recommended by Jeff (who sell Tormeks and Tormek paste). The common principle about efficient sharpening is that angles must be reproduced reliably. One of the problems I have with the Tormek leather wheel is that a round motorised strop is not predictable (holding the blade against this rounded face is anything mut predictable). Now Jeff I am not saying that the Tormek wheel is incapable of creating a sharp edge, and I am not criticising the Tormek (I love mine). I am simply saying that a round wheel is less predictable than a flat surface. In the same way that a pliable surface is less predictable than a hard, flat surface in the long run.

The theme of my message is consistent - for me, stropping is about short-term convenience. Others may take a different view (of course they will - there are many, many different ways to a sharp edge). If it works for you, them well and good.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ray Gardiner]

Interesting discussion, everyone has their favourite technique.... I use a tormek and have a number of shaped leather stropping wheels for various carving tools.

Only point I would think should be emphasised with stropping is that a light touch is needed. I also use a buffing wheel with a loose calico buff for a quick touch up, depends a bit on whatever's closer at the time.

I remember at the barbers as a young kid, the barber always stropped his fearsome looking straight razor when giving someone a shave.

Regards
Ray

[Sandy Stanford]

An important point about stropping has been overlooked.

Stropping on leather or MDF (to revitalise and edge, that is) is about convenience. Not many woodworkers have a dedicated sharpening area where they have easy access to their stones - which can be a messy affair. It is convenient to hang a strop under the bench, or nearby, and reach for it when the blade begins to dull.

Strops are not a substitute for stones. It is not about the grits available in paste form, or in diamond solutions, or cakes of rouge that may be used on leather or MDF more cheaply than a Shapton 30000. Charles (Sandy on this forum) is correct when he says that a strop will dub an edge where a stone is less likely to do so. But that is how strops work, and as long as they are used for revitalising an edge - which means that their lifespan in this regard has a finite number before returning to a stone - then they perform a valid task in my opinion.

In fact, Charles, using a plain leather strop to remove the wire edge, as you say you do, is likely to do harm since this can dub the edge of the blade.

I said earlier that I strop on either leather or a Shapton 12000 (my finest Shapton). I can do both because I do have a dedicated and accessible sharpening area in my workshop. For the past 12 months I have not needed to rely on a leather stop under the bench. Nevertheless, although I increasingly turn to the Shapton, I still pull out the strop with the green rouge, and it does the job perfectly well for that moment in time. But I think the point made by Charles is valid - a hard, flat surface is preferable to a soft, pliable surface.

The other point about strops is when they become substitutes for stones, such as recommended by Jeff (who sell Tormeks and Tormek paste). The common principle about efficient sharpening is that angles must be reproduced reliably. One of the problems I have with the Tormek leather wheel is that a round motorised strop is not predictable (holding the blade against this rounded face is anything mut predictable). Now Jeff I am not saying that the Tormek wheel is incapable of creating a sharp edge, and I am not criticising the Tormek (I love mine). I am simply saying that a round wheel is less predictable than a flat surface. In the same way that a pliable surface is less predictable than a hard, flat surface in the long run.

The theme of my message is consistent - for me, stropping is about short-term convenience. Others may take a different view (of course they will - there are many, many different ways to a sharp edge). If it works for you, them well and good.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Good post, I would simply point out that you already have a hard, flat surface in your shop - your finishing stone - of whatever ilk it may be (bet it's a good 'un). My guess is that it would/does/can perform superbly where touchups are concerned.

But if in the long run the 'convenience' factor works for you then I think that's great.

Me, I look forward to stepping away from the bench for a moment or two. I'm also convinced that a hard surface maintains flat-blade geometry better than one that compresses and produces a wave in front of the edge being worked.

I've also acquired the nasty habit of convincing myself that whatever edge I'm working with will last until I'm finished with whatever operation I'm on at the moment, i.e. I rarely stop mid-pare, mid-dovetailed corner, mid-well anything to do a touchup on strop or stone.

And God bless Brent Beach's sharpening-wonk little heart for the willingness to joust at windmills.

[Jeff Farris]

Please forgive me for diverging from the original issue, which was (if I can remember) stropping with compounds versus bench stones, but Derek has brought up an issue that gets to another important consideration, that of manual honing, whether on stones or strops, compared to power honing on a round surface.

Derek, you have called the Tormek honing wheel unpredictable, and leather unpredictable as well. I'm not sure that unpredictable is exactly what you mean. The wheel is going to turn in a circle. It can't turn in anything else. Even if the honing wheel isn't precisely perpendicular to the shaft, and the wheel has run-out, it is still quite predictable. It is going to do exactly the same thing with each revolution. Also, the leather is resilient. It has give, but that give is reliable, it isn't going to change. It is, in my view, quite predictable. You may regard this as a semantic observation, but bear with me for a moment.

What I find unpredictable is the nearly infinite number of possible changes in angle that can happen when all the joints in one's hands, arms, shoulders, torso, hips and legs try to hold a tool precisely on a flat surface and move it fore and aft at the same time. Consider that when honing on the Tormek, one need only control the angle of the tool and let the machine provide the motion (or at least most of it).

I firmly believe that a beginner (or anyone who has struggled with sharpening) can learn the dexterity needed to hold a tool against the Tormek honing wheel correctly far easier than he can learn to accurately and "predictably" use a bench stone. Let's also look at the surface feet per minute that a rotating wheel can put past an edge, compared to what one can do working back and forth (or as some would instruct, working in one direction only). Faster and easier works in my book.

[Mark Roderick]

Is "Sandy" the inimitable "Charles" from another site?

I have the greatest personal and professional admiration for Charles despite the fact that he is a highly developed curmudgeon by nature.

[Sandy Stanford]

Is "Sandy" the inimitable "Charles" from another site?

I have the greatest personal and professional admiration for Charles despite the fact that he is a highly developed curmudgeon by nature.

I just found an old Wood is Good composition strop in the bottom of a plastic tub that had been squirreled away in the attic - this along with an old water level and parts to a Lee Valley vise I never installed, there are some pipe clamp saddles, and old CLC set of leather bags, a ramset, and a bunch of other goodies.

The thing appears to be a very hard rubber. I'm going to slap some green crayon on it and see what the hubbub is all about.

Will it outperform the Black Ark?

We shall see.

[Ed Nelson978]

Ha Ha! You guys are funny! I don't have the few hundred dollars in waterstones, but my arkansas plus a strop sharped my carving tools quite nicely and I only have about $30 tied up in my system. You are probably right that when you go up to an 8000, 900, 10000 waterstone you don't need to strop, but I'd much rather work a little on my $20 stone and a few swipes on the strop and get back to the wood. The wood is after all where it counts!

[Derek Cohen]

...Derek, you have called the Tormek honing wheel unpredictable, and leather unpredictable as well. I'm not sure that unpredictable is exactly what you mean. The wheel is going to turn in a circle. It can't turn in anything else. Even if the honing wheel isn't precisely perpendicular to the shaft, and the wheel has run-out, it is still quite predictable. It is going to do exactly the same thing with each revolution. Also, the leather is resilient. It has give, but that give is reliable, it isn't going to change. It is, in my view, quite predictable. You may regard this as a semantic observation, but bear with me for a moment.

What I find unpredictable is the nearly infinite number of possible changes in angle that can happen when all the joints in one's hands, arms, shoulders, torso, hips and legs try to hold a tool precisely on a flat surface and move it fore and aft at the same time. Consider that when honing on the Tormek, one need only control the angle of the tool and let the machine provide the motion (or at least most of it).

I firmly believe that a beginner (or anyone who has struggled with sharpening) can learn the dexterity needed to hold a tool against the Tormek honing wheel correctly far easier than he can learn to accurately and "predictably" use a bench stone. Let's also look at the surface feet per minute that a rotating wheel can put past an edge, compared to what one can do working back and forth (or as some would instruct, working in one direction only). Faster and easier works in my book.

Jeff

You are loyal to Tormek. That shows in all your replies.

Understand that I believe that my Tormek is one fine tool, and it makes the work of preparing a sharp edge much, much easier. Nevertheless, I am also firmly of the belief that stropping plane and chisel blades is not one of the areas I consider to be its strength. I have no hesitation in taking my gouges and carving chisels to it, but not typically my plane and bench chisel blades. I have done so enough times to know that it works, and that it can work well, but what I am emphasizing is that the Tormek strop is not a reliable tool for a beginner or even an intermediate user. You and I go around-and-around on this point: I say the Tormek is not a sharpener but a grinder-with-a-strop, although I do accept that some use it as a sharpening system. Jeff, you have to accept that people are permitted to have different views.

What makes the the Tormek strop "unpredictable" is that it is round, and being round this will make it difficult to gauge the angle at which you are stropping the edge (if indeed it is the edge you strop - it is very easy to dub an edge if your technique is off). I would have thought that the tool rest would help here, but you said (in an earlier post in this thread), "On the strop, the use of the jig is in my opinion of questionable value". What you do when someone points to a weakness in the Tormek system is to criticise the opposition ("What I find unpredictable is the nearly infinite number of possible changes in angle that can happen when all the joints in one's hands, arms, shoulders, torso, hips and legs try to hold a tool precisely on a flat surface and move it fore and aft at the same time"). That is not helpful. What would be helpful is exploring what would contribute to predictable stropping.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Farris]

Derek,

Please overlook the fact that I sell Tormek. We go round and round on this issue not because I am trying to sell Tormek, but because I can put a better edge on a tool with a Tormek than I can with bench stones and I firmly believe that a lot of other people can, too. I have never, on any forum anywhere said that manual sharpening on flat abrasive didn't work. I did it successfully for about 15 years before I started working with the Tormek folks. I know that a lot of people who own Tormek finish on bench stones. That's fine, but it is a choice, and one that I feel is only one of a few available choices. One of the other choices is to finish on the leather honing wheel, which in my opinion offers some advantages. Those being, 1) it requires no further investment, 2) It requires only learning how to control the angle relative to the surface, the machine takes care of the movement, 3) It delivers a higher level of polish than almost any available bench stone or abrasive sheet on the market, and it does it economically, 4) It minimizes the overall footprint that sharpening occupies in your shop, and 5) once the technique is learned, it is wicked fast.

How is it "not helpful" to point out that manual honing on stones or a flat strop requires more moving parts in the human body than presenting the tool to the Tormek honing wheel? It is a fact. Yes, it is possible to dub an edge with the honing wheel. Will you please acknowledge that it is also possible to dub an edge and/or alter a bevel angle doing it on stones or a flat strop? Both techniques require that you learn a technique. My opinion is that learning to use the honing wheel is easier than learning to use a bench stone. Your opinion differs, but I think it is clouded by many years of success with stones before you even knew what a Tormek was. I have never, nor would ever question your skill. It is evident in every post you make on many different forums. And, your willingness to teach and share is admirable. But, you need to practice some of the tolerance of differing opinions that you're asking me to give.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll throw in my two cents worth. I use a power strop for sharpening carving tools, and I feel I'm pretty capable with a power strop. Have done it for years.

But no matter how I try, if I use my power strop on chisels and plane blades, I dub the edge. I find I get a much better edge straight off my water stones with chisels and plane blades.

And I've really tried a number of times to use the power strop on those tools.

I can only guess the reason but I think it has to do with the bevel angle. Carving tools use a very low bevel angle, and even if I sharpened them by hand, I'd get some rounding of the bevel because you just can't hold the tool that flat.

I use a jig with my chisels and plane blades so the angle I set it to is the angle I get. I suppose I could try really reducing the bevel angle of a chisel and see how the power strop finished the edge. My guess is that it would dub the edge somewhat, producing the equivalent of a secondary bevel, but the net effect would be a bevel of 25 to 30 degrees, which would work. I'll have to try that one day.

Mike

[Jeff Farris]

J.... What would be helpful is exploring what would contribute to predictable stropping.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

You asked this a couple weeks ago. I responded. You weren't heard from again on the subject.

See my post #15 in this thread.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=129648