using a strop

[Mark Roderick]

In my experience, stropping a blade on green compound definitely improves the edge, no question about it. By that I mean there is a very noticeable improvement in the cutting performance of the edge before and after.

In addition, on the advice of someone here, maybe Derek, I have found that if I strop frequently I can cut way back on the number of actual sharpenings. With my dovetail chisels I have found that I can do away with actual sharpenings entirely. Although I have no scientific evidence, I would think implies that stropping is abrading the metal.

In any case, this is my experience, albeit as an amateur.

[Sandy Stanford]

In my experience, stropping a blade on green compound definitely improves the edge, no question about it. By that I mean there is a very noticeable improvement in the cutting performance of the edge before and after.

In addition, on the advice of someone here, maybe Derek, I have found that if I strop frequently I can cut way back on the number of actual sharpenings. With my dovetail chisels I have found that I can do away with actual sharpenings entirely. Although I have no scientific evidence, I would think implies that stropping is abrading the metal.

In any case, this is my experience, albeit as an amateur.

With all due respect, you've described beautifully a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Abbreviated, aborted, truncated use, misuse, or no use of stones followed by using a strop as a proxy for a honing stone (which you chose not to use to full effect in the first place) results in an "improved" edge.

Of course it does.

[James Scheffler]

If what brought an inferior edge to the strop was poor technique then there would be little hope that all of a sudden technique gets better when standing in front of the strop. If you can't hone on a stone, I doubt it gets much better on a strop. I would expect a bad edge to get worse, especially on a charged strop since you're still removing steel. Now you're using bad technique on a medium that flexes and compresses underneath the tool. I'm hard pressed to see that as a helpful combination.

I guess my bad stropping technique IS a little better than my horrible honing technique, and that makes all the difference. Either that, or two wrongs really do make a right.

But seriously, I think this is one of those cases where there is more than one way to get to a good result. That happens a lot in woodworking. And counterintuitive things aren't necessarily wrong.

Jim

P.S. I've seen images of sharpened edges at much higher magnification than depicted in the Brent Beach article. Later on I'm going to look to see if I can find any of those that show the effect of stropping. Don't have time at the moment....

[Sandy Stanford]

I guess my bad stropping technique IS a little better than my horrible honing technique, and that makes all the difference. Either that, or two wrongs really do make a right.

But seriously, I think this is one of those cases where there is more than one way to get to a good result. That happens a lot in woodworking. And counterintuitive things aren't necessarily wrong.

Jim

P.S. I've seen images of sharpened edges at much higher magnification than depicted in the Brent Beach article. Later on I'm going to look to see if I can find any of those that show the effect of stropping. Don't have time at the moment....

Strops have been suffering mission creep ever since the so-called Hand Tool Renaissance came into being. We typically want and enjoy the latest in technology (Shaptons anyone?) and also maintain some romantic link to the past. I guess there's something about that piece of leather. A few internet cat-daddies, woodworking suppliers, and employees at woodworking magazines decided that if you could cut a piece of leather to about the same dimension or general conformation as a honing stone that it could BE a honing stone. Add some compound much better formulated for power buffing and you are off to the races. Try to ignore the several hundred dollar investment in quality stones you've made that obviates the whole bloody thing. One is just a cute puffy shirt away from the 18th century. C'mon, man - don't think so.

I think it often boils down to the relatively unknowledgable and undiscerning making a proclamation that "this pile of $hit doesn't smell as bad as that pile of $hit." Well, maybe not but I wouldn't want to consume either pile.

Do look for the micrographs.

FWIW, I still use oilstones. I still use a strop (but not as a honing stone). I've used sandpaper on glass and certainly no stropping was necessary after that method. It didn't bother me. I have other hang ups though. Strops just aren't one of them. Or are they?

Now, where's my puffy shirt?

[Mark Roderick]

With all due respect, you've described beautifully a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Abbreviated, aborted, truncated use, misuse, or no use of stones followed by using a strop as a proxy for a honing stone (which you chose not to use to full effect in the first place) results in an "improved" edge.

Of course it does.

No, you've misunderstood my post.

I'm saying that I sharpen up to an 8000 grit Norton waterstone and get a fabulous edge. Then I strop on green compound and get a noticeably better edge.

In terms of my competence, I think it's very unlikely that I am really bad sharpening on waterstones but world-class using the same techniques on green compound. Hence, the discrepancy remains.

Your response was therefore very much off the mark and unhelpful to readers trying to decide how and whether to strop.

I'm sure you know a lot more than I do. The question is, how do you explain the facts of my experience? I'm looking for answers here, not an argument.

[James Scheffler]

Do look for the micrographs.

I checked Leonard Lee's Complete Guide to Sharpening. Sure enough, on pages 32-33, there are micrographs showing an edge honed on an 8000 stone and then after stropping with chromium oxide compound. The stropping clearly improved the edge.

To be fair, it doesn't say if it was a leather strop, wood, or something else.

I'll try to find something online that people can actually look at, instead of taking my word for it.

Jim

[Sandy Stanford]

I checked Leonard Lee's Complete Guide to Sharpening. Sure enough, on pages 32-33, there are micrographs showing an edge honed on an 8000 stone and then after stropping with chromium oxide compound. The stropping clearly improved the edge.

To be fair, it doesn't say if it was a leather strop, wood, or something else.

I'll try to find something online that people can actually look at, instead of taking my word for it.

Jim

Hard to argue with Leonard Lee.

[Dan Barr]

I've wondered about this same thing.

Since a strop can flex, can it really "sharpen" your blade to a higher degree. I'm sure from a particular starting point, yes. But at higher grits, are you really sharpening or is the strop's flexibility rounding the more and more defined edge that you worked so hard to get?

I appreciate the opposite view. I strop my blades regularly. I sometimes notice that I seem to be rounding over the edge that was very crisp. (maybe my technique) Should i just go to a higher stone. say 15000? instead of stropping? this would allow me, beyond doubt, to keep the physical shape of the blade.

is the effect of the leather really rounding over the edge? what evidence is there on both sides?

I would like to think that I compensate for this. I use a thin flat piece of leather glued to a thick piece of plexiglass. however, this leather is porous and has those little pieces/grains that "spring" back up after the edge of the blade passes over.

Could lighter pressure increase the strop's ability to "hone"?

I've ordered the shapton lapping plate. I am now thinking about using my "stropping" compound on this lapping plate to go "beyond" the higest stone. In theory, this should be fine. the lapping plate is perfectly flat and the edge will be maintained because there will be no leather springing up to potentially dub my edge.

any thoughts?

dan

[george wilson]

I use a strop after honing on a fine white ceramic stone I use a little Flitz,or Simichrome. I think the key is to not strop TOO MUCH,and certainly NEVER power strop. I know some respected guys here who do power strop just fine. It probably has to do with their technique,and what they have on the power strop. I just don't prefer it.

[Mike Henderson]

Unless I drop a carving tool on the floor or otherwise damage the edge, the only thing I do to them is strop them. I do use a power strop just because it's faster.

And I can absolutely tell the difference between a dull tool and one that's just been stropped so something's happening that's improving the edge.

Mike

[The difference is not only subjective but also objective. When a carving tool (say a gouge) begins to dull, you get lines in your cut. They're small but easily visible. They're due to small defects in the working edge. Any time I see such lines, I take my tool to the strop and sharpen it.

I'd be very surprised if other carvers didn't report the same thing.]

[Added note: I don't strop my woodworking chisels. I find that those work just fine off the stone. But I don't use a stone on my carving chisels because power stropping is faster and when you're carving you want to spend time carving and not sharpening.]

[Derek Cohen]

One of the reasons for the conflicts over the results of stropping here (and generally) seems to be the different applications that a strop is put to. It seems that we could be talking at cross purposes.

I do not use a strop to hone a blade when I could instead use a waterstone. I use a strop as a quick way of recharging an edge (see my earlier post and link). Using a strop I can extend an edge about three times as long as I would without using it before going to stones. Using a strop takes a few seconds so it makes this process viable.

Charles, you say you use a strop. Tell us about it - what is is made of and what is it used for?

Dan, yes a strop can flex and you can dub a blade, but you can do this on any sharpening media (especially sandpaper). Good technique helps minimise any such occurences.

I watched someone (on YouTube) use a Tormek to power strop the frond AND the back of his blade. Would I do this? No, I have a million reasons why no - but it works for this guy. How do you argue with that?

At the end of the day one experiments and then decides for oneself. What we get on the forum is some help via the experiences of others. That may shortcut the process. However there is always the human factor here - technique and methodology can - and do - alter the results among various users. So at the end of the day we need to determine whether it works, and why.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Farris]

...
I watched someone (on YouTube) use a Tormek to power strop the frond AND the back of his blade. Would I do this? No, I have a million reasons why no - but it works for this guy. How do you argue with that?...

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I don't want all million reasons why, but could we discuss a couple? I'm pretty sure I'm the guy in the video you're talking about.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jeff

No, this is not about you. Not unless you also known as Vincent ..

http://chiconecabinetmakers.com/Vide....asp?CHVideo=4

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jeff Farris]

I hope people recognize that all it takes to be an expert today is an internet connection and a video camera.

Vincent's technique is not altogether horrid, but it leaves a great deal to be desired.

His stone surface is filthy and could not possibly be cutting efficiently. He went directly from the first step to the strop, which will result in a shiny, but serrated edge. I don't care if you use bench stones or grade your grind stone, but you need that intermediate cut for the strop to do its job effectively.

On the strop, the use of the jig is in my opinion of questionable value (though in the video I produced for Tormek I did it that way), and resting the tool on the rest while honing the back is an absolute recipe for a back beveled edge at best and a dubbed edge at worst.

You have to "kiss" the edge when honing the back, not bear it into the leather.

[David Keller NC]

I'm saying that I sharpen up to an 8000 grit Norton waterstone and get a fabulous edge. Then I strop on green compound and get a noticeably better edge.

The question is, how do you explain the facts of my experience? I'm looking for answers here, not an argument.

Mark - At least from a metallurgical science perspective, there's a very easy possibility for your observations, though not directly confirmable without a high-magnification reflective microscope: many who use high-grit waterstones get a fabulous polish on the bevel and back, but still do not develop the technique of reversing the orientation of the blade every stroke at the end of the honing cycle. That is, one stroke on the bevel, followed by laying the back flat on the stone and pulling back towards the sharpener. That cycle needs to be repeated a few times (not many - 3 to 5 cycles is enough).

What this does is to remove the micro wire edge on the very point of the cutting planes by honing it off. Many very experienced demonstrators will recommend removing this wire edge on a sponge or a cloth, or in some cases, ignoring that it's there altogether and just proceed to put the blade back into service.

From a practical perspective, it's actually irrelevant whether one hones the wire edge off or breaks it off on a sponge or a cloth (and we're talking the 8000 or 15000 grit wire edge, here - tearing off the wire edge left by a 1000 grit stone will leave a very unsatisfactory edge). The simple reason is that one pass down the board with the plane after such a high-precision honing will render the blade back to "working dull" - certainly sharp enough to feel sharp, and well over what is necessary to work wood with a plane, but definitely not in the condition that it left the stones or the strop.

Anyway - the direct explanation for your observation may well be that the wire edge left by the high-grit stone has not been removed, or it has been torn off by wiping the blade. In such a case, stropping with good technique and good compound would most definitely yield a noticeable difference.

--------------------------

Finally, and this is of course just my opinion, but the primary use of stropping should not be, as Sandy has noted, a substitute for good honing technique on abrasive stones. The primary use of stropping, should be, as Derek noted, a means of rendering a renewed edge to a "working dull" tool that would otherwise require a far more laborious and involved re-honing, even it it's only on the 8000 grit stone.

This is how I use a strop in my shop - I remove the entire blade/chipbreaker assembly from a plane as a unit, and strop the bevel twice on a cowhide strop glued down to a flat piece of wood. One lateral, very light pressure pass on the back restores the cutting edge to well beyond razor sharp in about 15 seconds. Going back to my 8000 grit stone would require disassembly of the chipbreaker, honing, re-oiling, re-installation, re-alignment and registration of the chipbreaker, and re-setting the depth and lateral adjustment on the plane.

Stropping is far faster, but it definitely has limitations. After about 5 to 10 of these stroppings, the edge has been dubbed sufficiently that re-honing is required.