Defective Tool Threads

[Brad Patch]

Over the years I have read numerous threads concerning tools that did not meet their owners expectations. Most, if not all problems were subsequently corrected to the owners satisfaction. It seems to me that if you have a problem the first course of action would be to contact the seller and fully explain your concerns. If that fails then by all means post your experiences on this or other forums, but to do so without giving the seller a chance to correct the problem seems a little unfair.

I have no connection or affiliation with any manufacturer.

[Stephen Edwards]

Over the years I have read numerous threads concerning tools that did not meet their owners expectations. Most, if not all problems were subsequently corrected to the owners satisfaction. It seems to me that if you have a problem the first course of action would be to contact the seller and fully explain your concerns. If that fails then by all means post your experiences on this or other forums, but to do so without giving the seller a chance to correct the problem seems a little unfair.

I have no connection or affiliation with any manufacturer.

Agreed, 100%. The forums should be used as a last resort for correcting problems with tools and machines that arrive defective or don't meet the owner's expectations. IMO, it's irresponsible to use the forums without first giving the supplier the opportunity to correct the problem or to issue a refund.

Then, it's perfectly appropriate to post your experience on a public forum, good or bad.

[Neil Brooks]

My $0.02:

I'd rather have a good product than a good warranty, or than good customer service.

Quality should be designed in, not tested out (or left to the consumer to evaluate, and for customer service to address).

Airing one's grievances on a forum like this should never be a substitute for a professional and respectful call to the seller/manufacturer. With that, I couldn't agree more.

That said ... IMHO ... a product that was defective on arrival, even if the manufacturer/seller eventually fixed it ... doesn't earn a grade of A+.

We all know the frustration, delay, disappointment, stress, and headaches those episodes can cause.

I'd rather have all the information that I can possibly get about ... whose products are likely to work when I take them out of the package, and -- perhaps more importantly -- whose products have a higher likelihood of needing a 'customer service intervention' [often followed by a rather inconvenient delay, waiting on tech support or replacement parts, etc.] before they'll work properly.

YMMV.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

What the OP is trying to say is that if you have issues with a product, give the manufacturer a reasonable opportunity to resolve the issue BEFORE you air it in public.

There is no product that hasn't had some issues. Period. All manufacturers have designed, manufactured and sold products that have had defects.

It's a matter of common coutesy.

[Neil Brooks]

Not trying to be contentious, here, but ... I guess my opinion differs.

Why does the chronology matter?

For example, I'm two-for-two with a big brand of power tools ... on having them arrive inoperable due to QC issues.

Though they DO make it right ... as right as right can be, after going through the hassles ... what's the harm in saying the machines were dead on arrival ... before I contact the company?

Again, it shouldn't be a substitute FOR contacting the company, but ... I'd rather get some sense of whose product is better, rather than whose customer service is better.

If you ask people to withhold posting until they've contacted the company, then ... I'm guessing we'll lose much of that information in the process.

No?

[Michael MacDonald]

seems like there is room to disagree in this topic. But if your intention is to post your experience after the company responds (and hopefully fix the problem), the why does it matter that you wait? Simply post that the initial quality problem existed, and then later keep the thread alive with updates on the experience with the vendor... and if they respond well, it might even motivate potential customers to get that product... I went to the web site for the clear vue cyclone after reading a post about how that company operates... wanted the "Mini CV06" (no luck because oneida legal action, though)... I think that any order is valid, as long as the posts are honest and complete...

[glenn bradley]

I appreciate someone reporting an initial problem. This gives all of us an insight as to the maker's QA and helps guide our purchasing decisions. It is very important for the OP to follow through with the results of the 'fix' or 'return' for the same reasons. What we should all be careful not to do is to rant about something due to brand loyalty or prejudice and then leave the matter open.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?


It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.

[Stephen Edwards]

I appreciate someone reporting an initial problem. This gives all of us an insight as to the maker's QA and helps guide our purchasing decisions. It is very important for the OP to follow through with the results of the 'fix' or 'return' for the same reasons. What we should all be careful not to do is to rant about something due to brand loyalty or prejudice and then leave the matter open.

I'm not suggesting that we not report our initial problems with a product. I'm simply suggesting that we wait until the company from whom we bought a product first be given an opportunity to make it right. Then, report the entire experience.

Unfortunately, a lot of people will leave the original rant open without later posting that the matter was resolved to their satisfaction.

Here's an example of how I dealt with a defective router plate from Rockler:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=102976

Though, when all was said and done, I did finally get a good router plate (good customer service), I also recommended, based on my experience, that folks not buy the original plate that I ordered.

Again, I want to hear about initial problems, even if they are resolved. What I don't like to hear/see is a rant about a product before the company has been given the opportunity to address the issue. IMHO, it is, as Ken said, a matter of common courtesy. But, that's just how I see it.

[Neil Brooks]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?

Thanks, Ken. I'm not used to ridiculous responses, but ... you give me an opportunity to take the moral high ground.

IF I made a mistake, and the company "stated publicly" that it was -- in fact -- my error, I would live with it. They, of course, would quickly cease to exist, as a business, though.

The ridiculous part is your characterization of "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent...."

It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.

I see that others agree with me. What I don't see is anything that supports your characterization that it is "a matter of common courtesy."

I'd rather know who's shipping defective products (if I need to cite my examples, in order that you or others may understand that there was ZERO operator error and 100% quality control issues, I certainly will), in order to both set more realistic expectations, as a customer, and to ensure that the company understands that quality matters to its customers.

But ... you, sir, are the moderator. I'm just a former VP of a couple of national retail chains who -- among other responsibilities -- managed Operations, Customer Service, and Quality Control.

[Neil Brooks]

Again, I want to hear about initial problems, even if they are resolved. What I don't like to hear/see is a rant about a product before the company has been given the opportunity to address the issue. IMHO, it is, as Ken said, a matter of common courtesy. But, that's just how I see it.

I don't see it as an either/or proposition.

I'm also -- quite personally -- less interested in how the company resolved it (I presume few companies will go out of their way NOT to make it right) than whether or not something worked out of the box.

By week three [when the replacement part arrived], for example, I might have lost any interest in posting that my new 1/2HP benchtop mortiser had an incorrectly drilled base-plate that rendered the mortiser inaccurate without creating a jig ...

I think there's value in catching the issues, even if we're left to presume that there -- eventually -- was a resolution.

[Sean Nagle]

My opinion is that I'd like to hear about the problem. Often times a poster is actually probing other woodworkers simply to verify that they actually have a problem. They may be new to woodworking or new to a tool and need some reassurance.

[Mike Cruz]

OMG, I can't believe this thread turned into a peeing contest.

I don't care if you are the VP of the Universe or an unemployed gas attendant (sorry, no disrespect meant to gas attendants who are out of work), what you have is an opinion. State it and move on. If someone disagrees, that is their, you guessed it, opinion.

[Glen Butler]

Neal,

If your problems were caused by operator error or mishandling on your part how would you feel if the company went public and stated publically you created the problem because you are an untrainable idiot or grossly negligent in handling or setting up the equipment?


It, sir, is a matter of common courtesy.

I am not saying they don't exist, but I have yet to see a thread where someone posted a problem with a tool stating that the company is a bunch of idiots and grossly negligent. We come to this forum for guidance on handling a problem. Name calling is different matter entirely. If a company expressed publicly that I was the cause of the problem, fine, I can handle that. If they were to call me an idiot for doing so, then shame on them.

Common courtesy would be to post the followup, and indemnify the company. Furthermore situations like these help a companies postition. We see that they handled the problem quickly and courteously, and therefore we want to buy from them.

[Neil Brooks]

OMG, I can't believe this thread turned into a peeing contest.

I don't care if you are the VP of the Universe or an unemployed gas attendant (sorry, no disrespect meant to gas attendants who are out of work), what you have is an opinion. State it and move on. If someone disagrees, that is their, you guessed it, opinion.

Mike,

It matters.

It matters because I can effectively represent the company's position, here, having HAD those professional responsibilities in the past.

Nobody wants the immature rantings of an unchecked lunatic, invoking their company's name in a public forum.

Smart companies, however, DO want to know what's happening, and WILL respond to the subtle pressures of the marketplace that call for them improving their processes -- particularly when the pain of NOT doing so is decreased business.

One of the best things about the Internet is the shift toward a more level playing field. 20 years ago, it was virtually impossible for a consumer to make an informed decision regarding quality or value. The internet is changing that. If we LET it, it will result in better products and better value.

If we don't, then we tell the company that -- as long as you make it right for me ... eventually ... I'll be okay.

Is that really the best possible outcome??

No peeing contest, here, incidentally, but ... thanks.