Defective Tool Threads

[Clifford Mescher]

Neal,

1. Being a Moderator doesn't make my opinion any more or less valuable, more right or more wrong than anyone elses opinion. I nor any Moderator has ever implied that. I'm sorry you feel intimidated by a Moderator resplying to your comments.

2. As someone who has worked in the front lines of customer service for 2 of the largest corporations in the world for 34 years , I find common courtesy to be a invaluable tool when dealing with customers.

3. I used the terms "untrainable idiot or grossly negligent" only to demonstrate that little information found on the internet neither correct,verifiable, and that airing comments publically isn't necessarily a good thing. Embarrassing someone, some company or their employees is not the best method to get a resolution to one's problems.

4. As a former VP of a large firm I am sure you realize that cutting QC helps reduce costs and expand market share. Every major company is doing it. If they didn't, most of the folks at this site couldn't afford the tools the use in pursuing this hobby.

Is that really a trend? Major companies are cutting quality control?

[Brian Kincaid]

I like hearing about it. I expect there to be a difference between Powermatic and Grizzly for example. One is significantly lower cost for a comparable machine. My expectation is that the lower cost machine would have some corners cut in the realm of QC. But, I would also expect that both companies stand behind their machine until it is made right after the sale/issue.

-Brian

[Brian Kincaid]

I've seen too many posts where the OP appeared to be doing it to get someone from the company who monitors this site to weigh in on their behalf. If that's what they want, contact them directly.

And this may get me in trouble but I think personal diagreements between posters (mods or not) should be taken to PMs.

Agreed and Agreed.
-Brian

[Ed Griner]

The D&G syndrome occurs when a poster "SCREAMS OUT LOUD" I have a complaint!Most of the complainers,seem to panic,and use SMC as their personal soap box.One way to deal with this maybe,a "complaint forum".Where complaints could be submitted via private mail,reviewed by chosen reviewers and determine the best way to handle situation.When the complaint is resolved,it would then be posted for the memberships viewing.Eliminate complaints in new post,until resolved.This offer would only be available to contributors and cost less than $.02 a day. Complaints from non-contributors would not be accepted.
Ed

[Dave Lehnert]

Back on subject.

I think what the OP is referring to is using this forum to to get what they want fast, by force.

No secret the president of Grizzy tools is an active member here. So you are seeing right off the bat something like. " My bandsaw is broke and Grizzly CS says parts will take a week to get, Unhappy-Grizzly is junk etc...) That would be fine and good but you know it is just posted to get the President involved.

You don't see that kind of post much for Jet, Delta or the like and it would be hard for me to believe their CS is better than Grizzly.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Back on subject.

I think what the OP is referring to is using this forum to to get what they want fast, by force.

No secret the president of Grizzy tools is an active member here. So you are seeing right off the bat something like. " My bandsaw is broke and Grizzly CS says parts will take a week to get, Unhappy-Grizzly is junk etc...) That would be fine and good but you know it is just posted to get the President involved.

You don't see that kind of post much for Jet, Delta or the like and it would be hard for me to believe their CS is better than Grizzly.

EXACTLY the point I wanted to make.

Some people post initial quality issues on SMC for valid reasons... to let people know that a particular manufacturer didn't get something right at the beginning. I think this is a valid motivation for posting an issue, even before the manufacturer has had a chance to make good.

Others use this forum to whine to the president of Grizzly. These threads usually degrade into arguments over whether Grizzly makes quality tools and whether grizzly has quality customer service. Then Shiraz jumps in, saves the day, and everybody praises him. This scenario is annoying to many of us, but actually makes Grizzly look pretty good.

So my point is, I think it's fair to tell people that you received a DOA tool off the bat. Customer service isn't just limited to responding to problems in a fair way... Customer service starts with designing products with a low failure rate.

I think it's unreasonable for people to use the forum to get their own personal issues resolved faster. It dilutes the quality of the content on this forum.

Just my opinion. If I made anyone angry, please count to 10!!

[Van Huskey]

EXACTLY the point I wanted to make.

Some people post initial quality issues on SMC for valid reasons... to let people know that a particular manufacturer didn't get something right at the beginning. I think this is a valid motivation for posting an issue, even before the manufacturer has had a chance to make good.

Others use this forum to whine to the president of Grizzly. These threads usually degrade into arguments over whether Grizzly makes quality tools and whether grizzly has quality customer service. Then Shiraz jumps in, saves the day, and everybody praises him. This scenario is annoying to many of us, but actually makes Grizzly look pretty good.

So my point is, I think it's fair to tell people that you received a DOA tool off the bat. Customer service isn't just limited to responding to problems in a fair way... Customer service starts with designing products with a low failure rate.

I think it's unreasonable for people to use the forum to get their own personal issues resolved faster. It dilutes the quality of the content on this forum.

Just my opinion. If I made anyone angry, please count to 10!!

I agree. Actually, posting to get company "officials" attention tends to run those people off, or force them into "hiding". Their known presence tends to make them a target and probably causes as many concerns about their product as it resolves because people are more likely to mention issues if they think someone "important" is listening. It might be profitable to be an active member of a forum if you are a small or fledgling business but a large corp is less likely to benefit.

[Callan Campbell]

What I love about this thread is that the first poster, the OP, hasn't been heard of since. We really took this one to a new level. And I thought the car business was bad. Interesting thoughts all the way around though.
Some of this boils down to people and types of people,who will ALWAYS yell loudly about a problem because they're 'sure' no one will take them seriously if they don't yell.
Then you have non-skilled or non-technical background people who can not see the way out of a problem without company help in short order, as they're not used to having to solve tool or machine issues by themselves. I don't knock these people much at all, there's little incentive in todays retail world to learn how to fix something yourself when it comes to tools and DIY machinery. So many other goods of all kinds are simply returned without question, so you have people looking at ALL goods with the same set of lens.
As for Customer Support or Service, I can speak years and volumes about this, at a field level, and having watched some managers and VPs above me do well in this area, and also blow it, I have a few thoughts about all of it. So let me rant about this , I guess
The Internet change ALL if it, forever. It speeds up happy thoughts, angry rants and gloats to a global level, right now, and we're all still learning how best to deal with it.
I totally agree that if a product or a service is done right the first time, you don't need customer service except to handle thank you's and more sales orders for more of a great product. That would be ideal.
In my line of work, everything is so cut-throat and based on 'just-in-time' manufacturing that anyone who needs spare parts is often out of luck if a car model is selling well for the 1st year its been introduced. God help you if you wreck a new car and need body parts. I'm actually thrilled if a woodworking tool or machinery company tells me a part is only on back-order for a few days or a week or two, since I'm dealing with 3 to 6 months back orders on a regular basis due to globalization forces and a bad economy to boot.
China, India and others like the USA are bidding for raw materials all at the same time, there's less to go around guys, I see a whole different world than most people apparently, with everyone assuming their jointer, planer, etc must just be sitting in a warehouse, ready to fly out on UPS or FedEx wings.
Be thrilled that Powermatic, Grizzly, or any other company that you like and buy from is even around these days. I'm totally NOT saying you have to accept bad designs, poor QC or poor CS,instead, just look around at how many levels of bankrupted support companies have been taken down in the car business that I'm in. Design companies, small and medium suppliers of all kinds poof, gone. With that, you had people at all levels of engineering and design that backed up the product.
We're so lucky with woodworking right now, we actually have a resurgence of premium hand tool companies across several countries, and we get to pick and chose equipment from a huge playing field of price points, all delivered to our door if we so choose or if we don't have a brick and motar store near us to look things over.
My final point in all of this is to enjoy wood, and working with it, it's a rare thing that can be planted in the ground as a tiny seed and harvested years from now to start the enjoyment process all over again. Sorry I had to rant, I feel much better now

[Phil Thien]

The way I see it, until J.D. Power wants to start rating tools for "initial problems," we have to rely on this and other forums.

So I agree that hearing about problems is valuable.

[Keith Outten]

We are going to take a more active role moderating these kinds of threads in the future.

I have said many times in the past that negative comments about companies must be backed up with facts and that generic comments were not to be made publicly. I am hesitant to ban these kinds of threads because used properly they can be helpful bringing attention to a problem that otherwise may not be resolved.

It is extremely important that we are responsible concerning this issue since negative information may very well cause irreparable harm to a companiy at this level. Effective immediately you will notice that these threads will be removed quickly if there is any concern by our Staff that they are not presented in a professional manner, if we feel they cannot be documented or if the tone of the message is unfriendly.

It is well known here that I have had a problem with Xenetech for many years and I have been very outspoken about my discontent with the machine we purchased at CNU. I didn't make any public comments about this situation until I worked my way through their tech support system and then had two telephone conversations with the President of their company. After several months waiting for them to resolve the problem I decided that others here may benefit from my experience so I made my case against Xenetech in our Engravers Forum. This is what we should expect before people start ranting publicly about any company or their products. Obviously the time line would depend on the situation and the details, in my case it was a software issue that I felt they deserved several months to correct. Sadly the problem has never been resolved.

Please help us by reporting threads that you feel are irresponsible or violate our Terms of Service. The first member of our Staff that receives your message will remove the thread and we will then evaluate whether it has merit or if it is to be deleted.
.

[Mike Cruz]

Thank you Keith.

What I love about this forum is all the opinions. Everyone has one, everyone is entitled to theirs.

What I hated about this thread is that it turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" arguement.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mike,

Realistically as the size of the Creek grows and the number of personalities here grows....you will probably see more dissension.

[Paul Johnstone]

I guess I don't see the problem with these posts that say "My XYZ tablesaw arrived damaged" or whatever. How is that any different from posts bragging about a great Craig's List score or whatever? A lot of threads on this topic are just chatting about woodworking as opposed to design or whatever.

If a major tool purchase arrives nonfunctioning or damaging, that's a pretty tramautic thing for the poster. No reason not to let him vent/cry a little bit.

Seriously, if these type of threads bother you, why read them? Most have clear titles indicating what the subject is about. I appreciate the information (good or bad) about people's experiences. I also agree that it's far better to have the tool work great out of the box than to go through customer service, replace parts, etc.

[Neil Brooks]

What I hated about this thread is that it turned into an "I'm right, you're wrong" arguement.

I wonder how many would agree with you.

I saw -- for the MOST part -- a thoughtful discussion.

[Michael MacDonald]

So Keith- just to clarify the etiquette. Does that mean the SMC policy is to remove announcements about initial quality issues unless the story contains the follow-up and resolution as well? Seems extreme to me.

For example, I got a Delta DP350 drill press a while ago. has a minor problem--the top panel is supposed to be removed weekly to oil, and it barely fits... it looks like the panel was sized badly and the screw holes are misaligned with the casing... in fact, Delta resorted to metal screws instad of machine screws for two of the six spots. It makes it a bit more painful to oil the thing. I don't intend to do anything about it--just another one of life's minor annoyances.

So should I post that? Is it not curteous to simply point out initial quality issues. Does the vendor not benefit from reading that, having the opportunity to respond and adjust the balance of profit vs. QC cost?

I agree that complaints need to be true... and should be complete. But I bet that for every complaint there is another post the thread where another guys says "not me... I liked that product..." or "hey... you sound more angry than rational...". I would expect anyone who makes something up that is extreme would get called out.

As an example, there is a Samsung discussion board on amazon that is monitored by a rep from the company... they guy actually responds to posts about their products and tries to help... I bet he gets a lot of crap, but the company must find it valuable. (BTW, good initial quality on my 46-inch LCD last year)