Phil Thien's Baffle and Bill Pentz

[Michael W. Clark]

I never looked at it in any different way... if I'm not comfortable, the rest doesn't much matter. I don't like freezing or sweating in my shop. Never considered any short-term issues with the material itself.

Dan,
It was in response to Ty's post.
"Having a shop where the humidity spikes to the point that the interior temp of the shop (and the stuff in it) is below the dew point in the shop every time the DC kicks on is NOT going to be good for the wood or the machines."

It's implied that there will be issues with the materials and equipment in hot/humid environments. There are too many garage shops, commercial shops, etc in the southern US that do not have air conditioning turning out quality work. I think the operator cares more about the ambient conditions than the machines and the materials do. From this aspect, the decision to vent outside is more of a personal comfort issue, not an issue with the materials or machinery as was implied. At least that is the way I read it, maybe I misunderstood.

Mike

[Chris Parks]

I find it interesting how views differ between two countries. In Oz the discussion is not about chip collection at all in fact it is just about ignored, the discussion is the fine dust, get that and the bigger debris gets collected and as a part of the fine dust collection process. There is also a growing awareness of not what to do. For instance never have a bag collector situated so it returns air to the work area or near an air entry to the work area such as a doorway or window, ditch all filters and exhaust to atmosphere etc. The last is I know impossible to achieve in cold climates but we are blessed here with a mild climate and about two square miles of snowfields.

As for the question does the dust affect you and is it worth the trouble to be almost phobic about it I had a conversation last week with someone who cannot go back into his workshop until he gets his new cyclone working which is a pretty sad commentary on the fact that the awareness of the problem is still fairly low amongst the WW community. Very few WW's participate in fora such as these and on the whole are still not aware of the major health issues that await them as they get older.

As far as I am concerned and I have said it before, as individuals we make choices in this life and we have to live with them.

As an aside some may be aware that I was the CV distributor in Oz but I am no longer and my comments are entirely my own views with no connection to CV.

[Ty Williams]

I may be in the minority, but I do not see that air conditioning and dehumidification is a requirement for the process of woodworking and furniture building. I think it is more of a creature comfort.

I'm quoting this but also replying to your lower clarification of what you meant with this statement. I can give you two quick examples of how AC/dehumidification are big deals around here:

1) The pieces being made need to equilibrate to the shop humidity before production begins. Then, they need to stay at a constant humidity during the production. Finally, they need to go into an environment that has roughly the same conditions for the duration of their life. Honestly, the problem really isn't what happens in the shop. The problem is what happens to the piece after it's finished and delivered to the owner. If it's being produced in a shop with summer humidity in the >70% RH range, then delivered to an air conditioned house that's in the 45% RH range, and will then drop to 30% RH in the winter (heating), it WILL have problems. I've lost two pieces to wood splitting when the wood was equalized to an outdoor Ohio summer and then brought into a humidity-controlled environment afterwards. I haven't had a single problem with pieces made from wood that got to rest in an air conditioned shop for a few weeks before being made.

2) The day-to-night temperature swing is large enough here that we get condensation (dew/fog) nearly every night at this time of year. Rust on machines becomes a HUGE problem when you have fog in your shop! It's an especially large problem if you get the odd weather we get a couple of times a year and the contents of the shop end up below the dew point and end up with standing water on them.


So, really, the critical issue is control of humidity, not bringing the temperature down. It's just that the most common way to get control of humidity on a building-wide basis is to install an air conditioner.

[Steven Green]

Mark I'm sensitive to Walnut on occasion and Cypress all the time. I think I probably got sensitized to Cypress as a kid, we used it a lot for exterior exposed wood. Makes me sneeze almost as soon as I get into it and then sinus troubles for a couple days afterward. Sometimes Walnut will do the same thing and then for long periods I have no problem with it at all.

[Phil Thien]

As for the question does the dust affect you and is it worth the trouble to be almost phobic about it I had a conversation last week with someone who cannot go back into his workshop until he gets his new cyclone working which is a pretty sad commentary on the fact that the awareness of the problem is still fairly low amongst the WW community.

Awareness of what problem, though? Statistically, the vast majority of hobbyist woodworkers never develop allergies or any sort of disease due to their woodworking hobby. A very tiny minority have difficulties. If you have data that suggests otherwise, please share it.

Because I spend a decent amount of time around doctors (working on networks inside hospitals and medical schools), I've been able to ask all sorts of doctors about the dangers of wood dust from woodworking, and I often get very puzzled looks in return.

The closest you get to "hits" are ENT's and allergists that will tell you that patients with a sensitivity to wood dust would likely have sensitivities to multiple allergens.

The entire "get the invisible fine dust" has been, and always will be, a scare tactic designed to separate people from their money.

[Michael W. Clark]

I'm quoting this but also replying to your lower clarification of what you meant with this statement. I can give you two quick examples of how AC/dehumidification are big deals around here:

1) The pieces being made need to equilibrate to the shop humidity before production begins. Then, they need to stay at a constant humidity during the production. Finally, they need to go into an environment that has roughly the same conditions for the duration of their life. Honestly, the problem really isn't what happens in the shop. The problem is what happens to the piece after it's finished and delivered to the owner. If it's being produced in a shop with summer humidity in the >70% RH range, then delivered to an air conditioned house that's in the 45% RH range, and will then drop to 30% RH in the winter (heating), it WILL have problems. I've lost two pieces to wood splitting when the wood was equalized to an outdoor Ohio summer and then brought into a humidity-controlled environment afterwards. I haven't had a single problem with pieces made from wood that got to rest in an air conditioned shop for a few weeks before being made.

2) The day-to-night temperature swing is large enough here that we get condensation (dew/fog) nearly every night at this time of year. Rust on machines becomes a HUGE problem when you have fog in your shop! It's an especially large problem if you get the odd weather we get a couple of times a year and the contents of the shop end up below the dew point and end up with standing water on them.


So, really, the critical issue is control of humidity, not bringing the temperature down. It's just that the most common way to get control of humidity on a building-wide basis is to install an air conditioner.

Ty, I do not disagree with you about the physics of humidity and A/C, I deal in this almost on a daily basis and it sounds like you have experience with this as well. I also agree that changes in humidity causes wood movement. This is the reason it is allowed for in solid wood furniture design. My main point is that, I don't think someone that vents DC outside has to air condition/dehumidify the make-up air or risk rusting all the tools, the wood curling up, and end up with an inferior project.

I have a friend in NE Oklahoma that has been building furniture for probably 30+ years. He works in a detached shop that has no A/C and uses a wood stove for heat (and disposal of mistakes). He has built a high boy, low boy, his kitchen cabinets, bookcases, display cases, etc for himself and family. All resides in conditioned spaces and looks fantastic.

I live in Northern KY, have lived in NW AR, and grew up in Northern AL. I do not recall a single instance of dew forming or a fog inside our garages or detached buildings. I had a garage shop in NW AR and have built some pieces that still reside in the house today. I built a wetbar about 2 years ago at our current house in KY. All the lumber was planed outside in the summer, then brought back in to a conditioned basement. Finish was also done outside, no issues to date.

There are a lot of people that work in unconditioned garage shops, open the door and make sawdust. The pieces they build often reside inside in the conditioned space of the home.

[Phil Thien]

There are a lot of people that work in unconditioned garage shops, open the door and make sawdust. The pieces they build often reside inside in the conditioned space of the home.

Well, A/C is a pretty modern convenience, furniture has been assembled in factories and small commercial shops without A/C for literally hundreds of years.

Many of the small commercial shops I've been in have relied on large fans on the hottest days. And many of these commercial shops don't get that warm in the winter, either, quite frankly. Many of them are in older buildings that are uninsulated and quite drafty.

[Robert Payne]

The entire "get the invisible fine dust" has been, and always will be, a scare tactic designed to separate people from their money.

I am afraid I must disagree with your statement, Phil -- I have first hand knowledge about a very advanced woodworker who died from respiratory failure after years of exposure to fine dust in his shop which he had ignored -- he worked almost exclusively with Black Walnut making beautiful furniture, but did not have any dust collection. I knew him toward the end of his life and admired his beautiful work, but was surprised when I saw his shop (he had breathing issues when I met him and was dead within a year). Walnut is known to be an allergen and irritant to many people as are many of the exotic wood species. Good dust collection is more than maintaining a clean shop, it does have positive health benefits. Good dust collection certainly has a price, but IMHO, it is worth the cost versus severely impacting one's health.

[Phil Thien]

I am afraid I must disagree with your statement, Phil -- I have first hand knowledge about a very advanced woodworker who died from respiratory failure after years of exposure to fine dust in his shop which he had ignored -- he worked almost exclusively with Black Walnut making beautiful furniture, but did not have any dust collection. I knew him toward the end of his life and admired his beautiful work, but was surprised when I saw his shop (he had breathing issues when I met him and was dead within a year). Walnut is known to be an allergen and irritant to many people as are many of the exotic wood species. Good dust collection is more than maintaining a clean shop, it does have positive health benefits. Good dust collection certainly has a price, but IMHO, it is worth the cost versus severely impacting one's health.

Chronic lower respiratory diseases (respiratory failure isn't a disease but a consequence) are the third leading cause of death in the U.S. (behind heart disease and cancer).

Undoubtedly, a great many woodworkers die from "respiratory failure."

The question is, are hobbyist woodworkers overrepresented in that population?

The answer: Nope.

For the record, I'm not advocating woodworking without DC. My point is, and has always been, that a decent single stage DC and air filtration unit will serve 99.99% of woodworkers. That, zealots advocating larger and more expensive solutions are less interested in making you healthy and more interested in making you poor.

[Ty Williams]

The entire "get the invisible fine dust" has been, and always will be, a scare tactic designed to separate people from their money.

I'm actually quite curious why, when the correlation of exposure to particulates in the same size range as we're dealing with in woodworking leading to respiratory diseases like COPD in other industries is so well documented, do you feel wood dust is somehow special and doesn't cause respiratory problems?

My wife works in medical research, so one of the nice things is being able to access all the journals for free plus being able to get her to get me the email addresses of other doctors at her institution that are studying things I'm interested in. I've gone through MANY odd an exhaustive searches on weird topics via her access (the oddest probably being the safety of tungsten carbide wedding rings in trauma incidents). When I started having problems with wheezing and being out of breath after working even briefly with dust-generating tools, I hit the literature. I didn't find anything saying wood wasn't dangerous. I found almost nothing saying wood was dangerous (other than some noted allergens like walnut and some known-toxic woods). What I found was a stunning lack of real research about woodworking specifically. I found a lot of studies about other fine particles from sands, paints, fillers, primers, stones, coal, plastics, etc, etc. All of them universally found that small dust particles produce big health problems is a statically significant portion of the sample population. So, with the confirmed data that particles in the size range and concentration range home woodworkers experience can cause illness, and lacking any data to conclusively show wood particles are exempt from this, why would you conclude it's all a scam?

[Steve Collins]

What I found was a stunning lack of real research about woodworking specifically. I found a lot of studies about other fine particles from sands, paints, fillers, primers, stones, coal, plastics, etc, etc.

Why do you suppose there is a lack of real research about wood dust, Ty?

[Phil Thien]

I'm actually quite curious why, when the correlation of exposure to particulates in the same size range as we're dealing with in woodworking leading to respiratory diseases like COPD in other industries is so well documented, do you feel wood dust is somehow special and doesn't cause respiratory problems?

My wife works in medical research, so one of the nice things is being able to access all the journals for free plus being able to get her to get me the email addresses of other doctors at her institution that are studying things I'm interested in. I've gone through MANY odd an exhaustive searches on weird topics via her access (the oddest probably being the safety of tungsten carbide wedding rings in trauma incidents). When I started having problems with wheezing and being out of breath after working even briefly with dust-generating tools, I hit the literature. I didn't find anything saying wood wasn't dangerous. I found almost nothing saying wood was dangerous (other than some noted allergens like walnut and some known-toxic woods). What I found was a stunning lack of real research about woodworking specifically. I found a lot of studies about other fine particles from sands, paints, fillers, primers, stones, coal, plastics, etc, etc. All of them universally found that small dust particles produce big health problems is a statically significant portion of the sample population. So, with the confirmed data that particles in the size range and concentration range home woodworkers experience can cause illness, and lacking any data to conclusively show wood particles are exempt from this, why would you conclude it's all a scam?

Well Ty, I have confirmed research indicating radioactive particles in the same range size and concentration as we're exposed during our woodworking, will kill us (and anyone around us) inside a year.

So why aren't we all dead?

The answer is, not all particles are created equal.

Wood dust is not asbestos nor uranium nor coal, nor plastic. The composition and sizes of wood dust do not conform to any of those others.

I have to go back to the obvious point: If woodworking dust is so dangerous, and if so many occupations involve some form of woodworking, and if woodworking is such a popular pastime that several TV shows show us how to do it, then I don't understand why hospitals are not inundated with woodworkers that can't breathe.

Certainly if doctors saw an uptick in the # of patients that were hobbyist woodworkers that had decreased lung function, they'd study it, right?

Well, why isn't it being studied? In this nanny state that we live in where we are told how many donuts we should eat (zero), why are they allowing us to buy sandpaper without a special license?

[Dan Hintz]

Well Ty, I have confirmed research indicating radioactive particles in the same range size and concentration as we're exposed during our woodworking, will kill us (and anyone around us) inside a year.

So why aren't we all dead?

The answer is, not all particles are created equal.

Probably not the best example to use, Phil. Radioactive particles of that size get lodged in the lung tissue and aren't easily removed by the body... which means they continue to decay over the individual's lifetime doing cumulative damage to the entire body, typically leading to cancer of one form or another. Wood particles may get lodged, but their damage is limited to the lungs in the form of scar tissue.

[Phil Thien]

Probably not the best example to use, Phil. Radioactive particles of that size get lodged in the lung tissue and aren't easily removed by the body... which means they continue to decay over the individual's lifetime doing cumulative damage to the entire body, typically leading to cancer of one form or another. Wood particles may get lodged, but their damage is limited to the lungs in the form of scar tissue.

The entire point is the mechanisms ARE different. If you inhale radioactive dust in the concentration we inhale wood dust, you aren't going to die from cancer, you will die from ARS (I said "inside a year" but it wont take nearly a year). If you inhale enough asbestos, you will die from asbestos-related cancer. If you inhale enough wood dust (full-time woodworking, no DC), you will probably develop nasal cancer, NOT lung cancer, if you get anything (it is still a long-shot).

[Ty Williams]

Why do you suppose there is a lack of real research about wood dust, Ty?

Now this one I can answer: money. That's been the biggest insight I've had in the decade I've watched the medical research system from the inside. It doesn't matter how many people are dying, it doesn't matter how many lives it will improve, the only thing that determines whether research gets done is whether you can get someone to give you money for it. Only research that is "sexy" can attract enough money to get serious research done. Woodworking is not sexy research. Right now, cancer is sexy research (though that's starting to fade and neuro stuff is coming to the fore). 30 years ago, it was heart disease. So 30 years ago an immense amount of money was flowing into heat disease, and thus an immense amount of research was being done, and quite a lot of mortality statistics improved. Now, you can't get funding to do research that'll save 1,000 people a year from heart disease but you can get funding to do cancer research that'll give 5 people a year another 6 weeks alive. Who decides what research is sexy? Not doctors. Oprah. Dr. Phill. Jenny McCarthy. Sadly, research dollars are (indirectly) assigned by celebrities that couldn't science their way out of a wet paper sack. So until you can get Oprah do to an hour long special about hobby woodworkers being put on oxygen in their 40s, you're never going to see significant research about the effects of wood dust.