How to butt together 4 walls?

[George Bregar]

There are of course many ways to do anything. In our business we opt to reduce material consumption at all costs. The American tradition of residential and commercial construction is inherently wasteful based on cheap goods. When we build homes we try to reduce materials at all costs while maintaining structural integrity. These bad habits become even more detrimental in envelope construction when all the excess wood in walls drastically decrease their efficiency.

Any cost savings in labor to build tip up wall assemblies in a captive situations is lost if you then move along the wall and properly shim the partition at regular intervals. Virtually no partition is consistent in height along its length. A good crew can stick build a captive partition wall, measuring each stud, in the same time as a tip up wall (if it is shimmed properly), and the end result will not be equal by any stretch of the imagination.

About the only argument that can be made in favor of tip up walls with a double top plat is if in a particular area the cost of pre-cut studs is low enough compared to full 8's to off set the additional top plate. We have run into this several times.

Just the way we do it,
Mark

Well, I'm not a crew. I'm just me. And I'm guessing the OP isn't either. Looks like since he posted the picture it's moot anyway. But the easiest way to frame a small room is triple studding the corners and tipping up a wall under a second plate. Sure you use a few more sticks...last time I looked a 2x4 x 8 was about a buck. What you do as a professional framing crew really has no bearing in a one off, single man room framing job.

[Rick Prosser]

Is that pipe your vent pipe or is it a waste pipe from a 2nd floor?

It is a common vent. Sorry my terminology is not very good.
It is a single level shop with concrete floor.

There will be a utility sink on the other side of the wall - outside of the bathroom.

[Thom Sturgill]

As the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words. On the far corner just attach the vertical to the stringers. On the other outside corner you have a major post to attach to, no problems there. On the inside corner to the left in the picture, the detail mentioned before is fine. The other corner supports a door, but that end wall is not particularly load bearing if your joists run parallel to it. No header required, just cripple studs above the door. By the time you add king and jack studs for the door and tie in the corner, that corner will be almost solid. The long walls might want to be 2x6 to carry plumbing (wet wall). You did not mention what loading (other than a water heater) you expect on the ceiling. I would consider sheathing the wall with the door with OSB on the shop side for lateral strength.

[Mark Bolton]

last time I looked a 2x4 x 8 was about a buck. What you do as a professional framing crew really has no bearing in a one off, single man room framing job.

A buck?!? Let me know where your at and I will send a tractor trailer. Well over two dollars most places we have worked for the past 5 years. I think I may have seen pre-cuts break the two dollar mark (under) recently. But thats rare. But again, the context of my statement was not a reduction of material with regards to cost alone.

I agree about the difference between professional crews and individuals, but none the less its most always the better way and thats why people ask, or look to see how its done "in the industry" when they are doing it themselves.

Again, there are many ways to do any given component of building construction but gathering information about the pro's and con's are never a bad thing as long as you stay unbiased.

Mark

[George Bregar]

A buck?!? Let me know where your at and I will send a tractor trailer. Well over two dollars most places we have worked for the past 5 years. I think I may have seen pre-cuts break the two dollar mark (under) recently. But thats rare. But again, the context of my statement was not a reduction of material with regards to cost alone.

I agree about the difference between professional crews and individuals, but none the less its most always the better way and thats why people ask, or look to see how its done "in the industry" when they are doing it themselves.

Again, there are many ways to do any given component of building construction but gathering information about the pro's and con's are never a bad thing as long as you stay unbiased.

Mark

whatever, a couple of bucks. And sorry, we'll have to disagree. No way it's easier than building a wall and tipping it up. And the result will not produce a "better wall" in any meaningfull way. Really, do you think someone that has to ask this question brings the skills etc that a framing pro has? Do you think he has a crew with that knowledge? Do you think he is going to invest in the power nailers that make all that toenailing easy? Trying to make a case of what a pro crew does to save $20 in material on a small bathroom just is counterproductive.

[Thom Sturgill]

George, I would have to agree with Mark here, *IF* you are putting up a curtain wall in a room (think basement partition). But that's moot if you look at the OPs situation. We are really talking about three free standing walls with an independant ceiling/deck in the middle of a pole barn.

[Mark Bolton]

whatever, a couple of bucks. And sorry, we'll have to disagree. No way it's easier than building a wall and tipping it up. And the result will not produce a "better wall" in any meaningfull way. Really, do you think someone that has to ask this question brings the skills etc that a framing pro has? Do you think he has a crew with that knowledge? Do you think he is going to invest in the power nailers that make all that toenailing easy? Trying to make a case of what a pro crew does to save $20 in material on a small bathroom just is counterproductive.

It will absolutely result in a better wall, unless like I said, you follow up with proper shimming. In which case, the walls would be equal. However, when you have to go back and shim, you loose the gains of the tip up. It is very rudimentary.

The simple fact of the matter is that most people, and I can only assume you, do one of two things. They either omit the shimming part saying "bahh, its just a partition", OR they conveniently ignore the amount of time it takes to go back and shim because in their mind they already have the wall up (but its not done).

With regards to the rest of your statement, this has nothing to do with skills, as you say, this is "just a small bathroom". There is little skill needed. That said, Rick is likely wanting to do the best job he can, and more so I would imagine, learn.

As I have mentioned many times, this is not merely an issue of cost savings thought materials reduction. Reduction of material used has overarching benefits that your bias' dont allow you to see. Thats perfectly acceptable, just dont expect others to be warm under your blanket.

Mark

P.S. I am sorry that you find toe-nailing difficult but perhaps that sheds a lot of light.

[George Bregar]

George, I would have to agree with Mark here, *IF* you are putting up a curtain wall in a room (think basement partition). But that's moot if you look at the OPs situation. We are really talking about three free standing walls with an independant ceiling/deck in the middle of a pole barn.

The issue at hand was before the OP posted his actual situation, and yes it's moot. But why's that Thom? Why is it easier to have to accurately measure between a top plate affixed to a ceiling and a sill affixed to the floor, and then toenail that perfectly cut stud...better not cut it too short!...to both while keeping it accurately 16" OC and even with the sill and/or plate edge?

[Mark Bolton]

Why is it easier to have to accurately measure between a top plate affixed to a ceiling and a sill affixed to the floor, and then toenail that perfectly cut stud...better not cut it too short!...to both while keeping it accurately 16" OC and even with the sill and/or plate edge?

You see, your bias' doesnt allow you to learn. You dont "accurately measure between a top plate affixed to a ceiling and a sill affixed to the floor". That is the foolish way to do it. You measure your stud with both the top and bottom plate on the floor. Let gravity help you.

Keeping things at 12", 16", 19.2", or 24", on center is simply what you have to do when you are building. If you cant easily maintain those centers while working you should sell your tools off. Its far from difficult.

And again you reference toenailing, yet another every day part of building construction, rudimentary. If you havent started to refine the toenailing process after 15 or 20 studs, you should again be listing your tools and bag on ebay.

I have no idea if you are just a generally unhappy human being. Perhaps you hate your job or profession. Maybey you feel you have been dealt a raw hand in life. I have no idea, but there is no excuse for not exposing yourself to the opportunity to learn anything and everything new you possibly can, and THEN decide if it works for your in a given situation.

Unfortunately, your position on routine is why this country is in the ditch with regards to innovation and creative thinking. For your sake, I sure hope you dont put these traits on your CV, resume, linkedin, etc..

Mark

[Rick Prosser]

Here is what I ended up with for bathroom framing:

Starting the 2nd top plate
FrameBath.jpg

After the ceiling joists and ready for flooring on top
bathFrame.jpg

Used 2x6 for the wall with sewer vent. 2x4 for the other walls - all treated. 2x4x8 treated is cheaper than untreated, and being a wet (shower) space - I went all treated for the walls.

[Al Hanson]

Rick, one small suggestion, I would use cement board all the way around the shower, extending a little past it. I am not a fan of green sheetrock, and you'll have a stronger wall, which will hold tile more securely, and hopefully have less issues with grout cracking. I know it's only a shop bathroom, but I always like to do things only once, even if it takes a little bit more time and/or money. In this case, I don't think it will be much more of either. Just my 2¢

[Rich Engelhardt]

I went all treated for the walls.

What type of fasteners did you use?

Treated requires special nails and screws.
It eats anything else alive in a matter of months.

[Rick Prosser]

Rick, one small suggestion, I would use cement board all the way around the shower

I was planning to use cement board, but because that is all I had heard about. Green sheet rock is new to me. (never rocked a shower before)

What type of fasteners did you use?

I used exterior deck screws for fasteners because of the treated wood. I will also add some purlins to help keep the wall studs from twisting during the drying process.

[Kent A Bathurst]

You're missing one key component....when the day comes that we move and I build my "final shop" there will be a bathroom, of course - with a urinal - just in case anyone else in the house forgets whose shop it is

[Rick Moyer]

I was planning to use cement board, but because that is all I had heard about. Green sheet rock is new to me. (never rocked a shower before)



I used exterior deck screws for fasteners because of the treated wood. I will also add some purlins to help keep the wall studs from twisting during the drying process.

Green sheetrock is MR (moisture resistant) board, but I would go cement board if it were me, Just a personal preference. (I'm not a professional)