NEW - Sweet Heart Plane, disappointing

[Derek Cohen]

Yep, showing my colors again.

Any of it untrue?

Care to address the specifics of what I've said?

Oh Charlie, I am going to waste as little time on this and you as possible. You enjoy stirring - that is all you do on forums. I rarely ... very rarely .. ever read anything you write that offers actual advancement to a discussion. Muck raking is your forte.

I have written many reviews. Out of about 30 reviews I have completed, I was asked to write a grand total of two - never kept that secret, nor that I was "paid" with the tool. I will not do any more of those as the effort involved removes all the fun (which is why I write) and creates an opening for the Charlies of this world to offer more dismissive remarks. All the remaining reviews (especially including all the Veritas tools) I did as a hobby. I do not get paid to do reviews. Do I get "free" tools? Sure - I provide pre-production advice and testing to Veritas for some of their tools. None of this is a secret. I am not the only one doing this. When that tool is later produced I generally get one. Do I write these up? Only the ones that I think are interesting and will interest others.

This is all on record on many forums since you raise the same old same old all the time. B-o-r-i-n-g.

When are you actually going to offer a constructive, helpful piece of information instead of something that is twisted and dismissive? Don't bother to answer, because I will not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Easton]

Point ... counter point ... point ... counter point.

Have we had enough yet? I have!!!

[Sandy Stanford]

Oh Charlie, I am going to waste as little time on this and you as possible. You enjoy stirring - that is all you do on forums. I rarely ... very rarely .. ever read anything you write that offers actual advancement to a discussion. Muck raking is your forte.

I have written many reviews. Out of about 30 reviews I have completed, I was asked to write a grand total of two - never kept that secret, nor that I was "paid" with the tool. I will not do any more of those as the effort involved removes all the fun (which is why I write) and creates an opening for the Charlies of this world to offer more dismissive remarks. All the remaining reviews (especially including all the Veritas tools) I did as a hobby. I do not get paid to do reviews. Do I get "free" tools? Sure - I provide pre-production advice and testing to Veritas for some of their tools. None of this is a secret. I am not the only one doing this. When that tool is later produced I generally get one. Do I write these up? Only the ones that I think are interesting and will interest others.

This is all on record on many forums since you raise the same old same old all the time. B-o-r-i-n-g.

When are you actually going to offer a constructive, helpful piece of information instead of something that is twisted and dismissive? Don't bother to answer, because I will not.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Buy Lee Valley/Veritas tools!!

How's that for constructive?

No need to beat around the bush by 'reviewing' their equipment is there?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Buy Lee Valley/Veritas tools!!

How's that for constructive?

No need to beat around the bush by 'reviewing' their equipment is there?

Ya go away for a day or so, and you miss a great food fight.

Sandy - I read the info on Derek's site, including the LV tool reviews. Never caused me to buy a LV - don't own any, but do own LN - but Derek's information certainly helped me understand the issues involved.

I bet you also have insightful points on your site - where can I find it? I'd be interested.

[Mark Maleski]

Buy Lee Valley/Veritas tools!!

How's that for constructive?

No need to beat around the bush by 'reviewing' their equipment is there?

I think this post is unreasonable and unfair.

[Sandy Stanford]

I think this post is unreasonable and unfair.

The problem with Derek's advice and counsel is that it's basically always the same.

Some people simply can't afford a complete outfitting through Lee Valley, Lie Nielsen, Clifton, etc. (and in Derek's case an emphasis on Lee Valley).

Some of us, me included, can afford a bit of a mix (I have two Lie Nielsen tools - a skew block and a 66 beader). Everything else is Stanley/Record.

Other have to make do with Stanley, Record and maybe not so much of them. Woodworking on a shoestring. Been there, done that. And over again.

The Lee Valley/Lie-Nielsen broken record gets old. Both make excellent gear. Buy either if you can afford it. At this point, both brands and companies are well-trusted and it would be difficult to go wrong. If you aren't happy with your purchase they've both proven they'll make you happy or refund your money.

FWIW, "Alf" has written reviews on a couple of Quangsheng (Wood River) planes over on the UK Woodworking forum. She has no vague/shady/half undisclosed/semi-ongoing/or outright connections with any tool manufacturer. The reviews are well written and also for lack of a better term, "real."

Cheers,

SS

[Sandy Stanford]

Well....
It was an interesting thread until the guy with too much caffeine showed up and started making things personal.

Can we calm down and behave like decent adults?

No, but you can pour me another Cup o' Joe please.

[george wilson]

I think that often the wife of the woodworker MIGHT be a reason why some guys don't buy expensive planes. No insult is intended. This is just from some personal,and observed situations.

My EX was very frugal about saving money,although her salary was close to what I was making at the time. A $175.00 purchase was a big deal to her. It was really silly,too,because we had MUCH more money than we needed to live on.

I have some friends who have more money than I'll ever see. They have a daughter who has so many kinds of private lessons that it seems like every minute of her day is occupied. They have a very expensive house and cars. The poor guy(who has all the money) wants to have a little shop in their 2 car garage. He's got a FEW cheap things like a lunchbox planer,and a little borg saw. His wife is obviously opposed to his interests,mentioning the EXPENSIVE tools,and the mess(there isn't any) in their garage!!. They want to buy one of my handmade violins for the daughter,which cost plenty. Meanwhile,she plays a $2000.00 violin. I think she's 14.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I will issue this warning once. This thread and the members involved will refrain from personal attacks and if they choose to add new posts, they will continue in a civil manner. I am an inch away from doing some serious editing and deleting. Don't push the edge of the envelope folks, it will not be tolerated and I will retaliate for any Terms of Service violations.

Tone it down!

[Richard Niemiec]

I, for one, happen to find Derek's posts, as well as his writings on his website, quite informative and unbiased. Indeed, and with specific regard to tool reviews, my own experience with many of the tools reviewed fully squared with his observations of the tools in use. Derek is always willing to share his experience and techniques, which are almost universally delivered sans agenda, and if I may add, without animus, and I find those characteristics to be quite a bit more compelling than those who deliver theirs having one and with some.

[george wilson]

I think that all with any sense can see that Derek has not gained his skills and talents by being handed everything. I certainly was not,nor encouraged to go my own way by my parents.

Someone knowledgeable has to evaluate tools. If Derek has been invited to do so,it is due to his own talent and industry,observed by the manufacturers.

[James Taglienti]

What makes a Lie Nielsen plane perform better than a Stanley with an upgraded iron? They are essentially a copy of the Bedrock design. I have used both. I prefer Stanley planes because they are cheaper and there are many many more available. You can't walk into a flea market and pick up a Lie Nielsen for $10. The perfectly machined this-and-that is hype. The bronze bodies are pretty, and a bit heavier, so what. The mystique and the pride are my best guesses. Why would i want a perfectly flat sole? nothing I am planing is going to be perfectly flat. The iron won't allow it. The wood will move imperceptibly overnight or in a matter of moments, it is it's nature. Lie Nielsen doesn't even have that great of steel.
I like their rabbeting block plane, the Sargent 507 copy, because it is cheaper than the original. If their #72 is less than $300, ill buy that and sell the Stanley. We are not working on spaceships, we are working wood that is constantly moving, much more that the 2 thousandths that we all seem so obsessed about. Spending over $1500 dollars on a set of bench planes is frivolous at best, and foolish at worst. Nobody should care if the sole of their scrub plane, jack plane, or scraper is dead flat. It's absurd. I spent $400 on a 125 year old craftsman made infill smoother. It is 7 1/2 inches long, 2 3/4 inches wide, and weighs 8 pounds. It is adjusted solely by my mallet. It works like an absolute dream. That plane was worth every penny. If I want a Bailey type plane with an upgraded iron, I'll buy a Bailey type plane and a Hock iron, for a quarter the cost of a bronze trophy.
I'm done.

[george wilson]

I hardly EVER use my few Stanley planes. I make planes myself. I do have several LN planes,though,because I just like them. I THINK they MIGHT be cast thicker than the Stanley's. Probably tolerances are held to tighter specs. Blades are better.

I don't have their ordinary Stanley bench plane models,so may be wrong. I can't recall what all I have,either! My favorite is my miter plane copy. I also have a block plane with cast iron body. It seems heftier looking than the Stanley block planes I do have. My first LN plane was their open side block plane with angled blade,a gift from my wife and a few friends. Also,I have their side rabbit bench plane,and their side rabbet block plane. Another is their scraper plane,about 10" long,with the tilting handles. Also have their 3 shoulder planes,though I don't really need them. I am a tool hog!!! My brass shoulder plane,posted here in the FAQ section is perfectly satisfactory.

I bought about 13 LN planes between my toolmaker's days,and my home shop. Liked them all.Sitting here inside,I'd have to go check what I have here. I can't recall model numbers,either.

I wouldn't mind having a low angle jack plane,though I find my miter plane works quite well on figured woods. We had the low angle jack plane at work. It would even do curly maple very nicely.

Generally,I just think they are heftier,blades are thicker,and tolerances tighter.

Really,I enjoy using old wooden planes too. Was stuck with them for about 17 years as Instrument Maker,after all. There is an English coffin smoother,that has a thick iron plate forward of the blade. On top of the body,there is a screw for loosening the thick iron front sole so you can adjust it. I looked for one of these for years,but never could find one in this country. Finally,I took an old plane,and made one out of it. You can adjust the iron sole to the thinnest throat. I should post a picture of it,but I've gotten so far out of posting pictures that I probably have forgotten how!!

That plane is my favorite wooden smoother. In England years later,I was in an English flea market,and FINALLY found one. But,the body was cracked,and they wanted so much for it that I didn't buy it. Mine was just as good anyway. Nothing complicated about this type of plane.

I learned about this type plane from a very old English furniture conservator who worked in Williamsburg when I was first there in 1970. He was the entire furniture conservation shop at the time. He really loved that type plane. I used mine for years,and still have it.

[Richard Niemiec]

What makes a Lie Nielsen plane perform better than a Stanley with an upgraded iron? They are essentially a copy of the Bedrock design. I have used both. I prefer Stanley planes because they are cheaper and there are many many more available. You can't walk into a flea market and pick up a Lie Nielsen for $10.

True, Stanley planes are cheaper and I've never seen a LN bench plane on sale for $10.


The perfectly machined this-and-that is hype.

I have bought plenty of Stanley planes where the frog mating surfaces have been off, and off considerably. Performance of these planes are marginal at best; I've never had that problem with a LN bench plane. Hype, well, I don't think so.

The bronze bodies are pretty, and a bit heavier, so what. The mystique and the pride are my best guesses. Why would i want a perfectly flat sole? nothing I am planing is going to be perfectly flat. The iron won't allow it.

I am not a big proponent of flatness being the true determinant of a well performing plane, if it works, it works.

The wood will move imperceptibly overnight or in a matter of moments, it is it's nature. Lie Nielsen doesn't even have that great of steel.

LN irons are far superior to the original Stanley irons

I like their rabbeting block plane, the Sargent 507 copy, because it is cheaper than the original.

That's why I bought mine, agreed. And its the same reason I bought my LN 98 and 99.

If their #72 is less than $300, ill buy that and sell the Stanley. We are not working on spaceships, we are working wood that is constantly moving, much more that the 2 thousandths that we all seem so obsessed about. Spending over $1500 dollars on a set of bench planes is frivolous at best, and foolish at worst.

Some might say that buying over/under engraved shotguns for $1500 when a $400 Mossberg does the same job is frivolous/foolish, but its done all the time. America is a free country, last I noticed.


Nobody should care if the sole of their scrub plane, jack plane, or scraper is dead flat. It's absurd.

Agree that scrubs, jacks or scrapers don't need to be flat, but absurd, I don't think so as quite likely when the old Stanleys left New Britain they were pretty darn flat. But on the other hand, why would LN NOT make soles on newly manufactured planes flat??

I spent $400 on a 125 year old craftsman made infill smoother. It is 7 1/2 inches long, 2 3/4 inches wide, and weighs 8 pounds. It is adjusted solely by my mallet. It works like an absolute dream. That plane was worth every penny.

And you are likely right about that plane, and that's your opinion to which you are entitled to without being labeled as foolish or frivolous for the way you spend your money.

If I want a Bailey type plane with an upgraded iron, I'll buy a Bailey type plane and a Hock iron, for a quarter the cost of a bronze trophy.

And my #3, #5, #6 and #7 are just that, a mix of Type 11 and 16 Stanleys with Hock irons, and they work just fine for me too.

I'm done.

Everyone is entitled to spend their dollars as they see fit without being labeled as a fool or dilettante. My experience with planes, acquired over 20 years of using them, allows me (and perhaps you as well) to take an older, well engineered plane of various manufactures (e.g., Stanley, Sargent, MF, Union, Record, etc.) and tune it up for optimal performance. Not everyone who is just starting out can do that. LN and LV serves that market, as well as "our" market for Sargent 507s or Stanley 72s (I don't remember that LN makes a version of the #72, unless its in development) or 98/99s. To each his own.

RN

[David Gendron]

So, to be back on track here, I read a post on a blog called "Wood Therapy" about the New Stanley planes, that is from the post:

" Now.... despite any reviews of the new Stanley sweet heart planes you may have read take it from me. My new No.4 Stanley was well machined with a dead flat sole! It required no honing or tuning up straight out of the box. It is a heavy beast , which is what I want in a hand plane. The Asheville Woodworking school where I teach is outfitted with LN planes, a high quality plane for sure, but at a third of the price I could not tell much difference in the two. In fact I actually much preferred the new Stanley due to it's weight and the Norris style adjuster which allows very fine micro adjustments to the blade depth. It is a whole lot of tool for $180 (LN planes from $240 and up!)".

I don't know the guy, and I don't know how reliable his review is but...
On an other topic, I ordered a set of 4 planes from DL Barrett & Sons, all wooden plane, a fore plane, a try plane, a jointer and a smoother. They should show up at my door in about 10 months and they will cost me... Well, a lot to some people and nothing to other! Sure I could of bought some from the bay and fixe them up and may have decent planes or not! But I choose to go Canadian and new!
I don't have money in my bank account and I'm a full time dad at home wile my wife is working as a teacher. We set our prioritys the way we set them and we are happy with our choices!
Have fun in life, anjoy what you are doing and do your best doing it!
Cheers!