New Uni, No Brake

[John Callahan]

[QUOTE=Gary Muto;1360486]

They didn't become mandatory until after the original patents expired.

cars had airbags in the mid 70's. Nobody wanted them. that was back when most of us didn't use the seatbelts that were mandatory.

Airbags were promoted by the Ralph Nader/ Joan Claybrook sector as a a response to the lack of seat belt use. Folks forget that in in the beginning air bags killed and injured people- severe injuries and the decapitation of children and infants were sometimes the result of the gov't mandate. Deaths due to airbag deployment peaked at 53 in 1997. The carmakers had to petition the government to allow less forceful airbags, i.e "supplemental restraint systems". It wasn't a device ready for prime time when first released. As for saws a RK/useable guard would be far higher up my priority list than a blade brake.

[Karl Brogger]

Karl, the guy who was inadvertently hit from behind and his hand was thrown into the blade comes to mind.

Kinda grasping at straws here aren't we? Yeah, stuff does happen. There is no way to stop it. Now what if the brake doesn't work? That could happen too. There's far too many what ifs out there to account for them all.

I hope the guy who did the bumping was at the very least fired, or better was beaten within an inch of his life for his sin.

[Dino Makropoulos]

The post about the Tiger Saw is very enlightening. Industrial "wood processing" machines often take a very different approach to presenting wood to the cutter or the cutter to the wood.

Sean, I owned and ran an industrial woodworking dimensional plan.
Cut to side unusual cut-offs and second grade wood.
Turning $500.00 scrap into $30.000.00 ( a small 20 feet container)
in one day.
The only machines in my plan was industrial US made very "Smart" tools...
30-40 and even 60 years old.

The only machine that was dangerous and in a locker was...
a new portable tablesaw.

[Van Huskey]

[QUOTE=John Callahan;1362730]

Airbags were promoted by the Ralph Nader/ Joan Claybrook sector as a a response to the lack of seat belt use. Folks forget that in in the beginning air bags killed and injured people- severe injuries and the decapitation of children and infants were sometimes the result of the gov't mandate. Deaths due to airbag deployment peaked at 53 in 1997. The carmakers had to petition the government to allow less forceful airbags, i.e "supplemental restraint systems". It wasn't a device ready for prime time when first released. As for saws a RK/useable guard would be far higher up my priority list than a blade brake.

ALthough those 53 in 1997 may not have been the ones killed, even the first generation air bags probably saved far more lives than they took.

I do agree that riving knives and easy to use effective guards would probably reduce injury far more than blade brakes.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Now what if the brake doesn't work? That could happen too.

Kind of grasping at straws there, aren't you? AFAIK, there has not been a single incident of the brake failing to fire.

There's far too many what ifs out there to account for them all.

Right. That's why people account for the MOST LIKELY ones.

I hope the guy who did the bumping was at the very least fired, or better was beaten within an inch of his life for his sin.

Well, I'm sure the guy who caused the accident did so on purpose, so clearly that makes sense. I also bet the guy who is now missing fingers is consoled by such thoughts now that he can't practice his trade any longer.

[Paul Ryan]

No, people need to understand that there is inherent risks to anything, and that inattentiveness has consequences. It the operators job, not the saw's, to determine if he is qualified to perform the task at hand. It applies to lots of things, and not just the operation of a tablesaw. It is the employers job to hire people that are either qualified, or capable of learning. The tool is just that, a tool. Unless you tell me stories of an actual failure on the saw's part, (blade flying out, etc), it carries no responsibility. This same thinking will eventually make forks hard to find if it goes on long enough.

A shop I worked at a younger guy removed a finger on a moulder, but he didn't do it on one of the cutters. Morons are very creative in their stupidity.

I complete agree and disagree with this statement. People do need to understand the inhernt risks with tools. But if we shops weren't allow to hire people that make mistakes, every shop would be one man shows. We need to understand everyone, and that mean everyone makes mistakes. It happens nothing you can do about it. These mistake can come in all sorts of shapes and sizes.

I think we need to support saftey and promot safe pratices. But by all means not to dismiss a saftey device as influential as a blade brake. That is just plan stupid if you ask me. If the technology is there why not use it. That is like telling people to quit buying cell phones because it has made our communication too easy. It doesn't make any sense.

I am just very supprised that by now, since blade brake technology is proven. That more manufacturers haven't embraced it. It is really sad. The state of these manufacturers.

The only way this is going to change is if we support saftey and continue to buy saws with blade brakes. I think sawstop is a great example and will prove that saftey means something to us.

What did Delta do to the new Uni to advance saftey. Really nothing. The only thing that has change since the 1940 Uni's is a motor cover and a riving knife that is pretty sad. And that really goes with any other manufacturer. It is really sad. I do not believe that every saw that is made should have a brake. It is too costly to add to every table saw. But it is just ludicris to accept that status quo. Because we should no better. It doesn't work that way if the technology is there we should use it.

Sliders are nice but they are not the answer not everyone has the space that a slider takes up.

And riving knives are nice but they do nothing to prevent the real injurys, amputation. Kick back is nothing to laugh about, but I would rather have a broken nose, or ribs, than be missing fingers. And guards are great but I am sure that less than 50% get used because the vast majority are pieces of junk. And the good ones still only provide some security.

My whole point is that here were are almost 10 years since the blade brake has been available. And still no other manufacturer has develped anything close. And to be honest havent really changed much other than to add blade shrouds and riving knives. The riving knife is a nice addition but be it still have a realativly cheap addition. So the trunion had to be redesigned some. I would really like to see the next 10 years even more saftey to be added. The auto manufacturers must do it, why not machinery producers.

[Van Huskey]

And riving knives are nice but they do nothing to prevent the real injurys, amputation. Kick back is nothing to laugh about, but I would rather have a broken nose, or ribs, than be missing fingers.

Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Other than your take on kickback I agree with most of what you say.

Traditionally, most table saws were sold to people who would remove any manner of safety equipment applied to them and never demanded more safety. This allowed the niche for Sawstop to exist. The lost sales for the major machine companies is just a drop in the bucket, when it becomes more you will see a shift toward more active safety measures, until then there is still a choice for those that have the budget.

[Dino Makropoulos]

No, people need to understand that there is inherent risks to anything, and that inattentiveness has consequences. It the operators job, not the saw's, to determine if he is qualified to perform the task at hand. It applies to lots of things, and not just the operation of a tablesaw. It is the employers job to hire people that are either qualified, or capable of learning. The tool is just that, a tool. Unless you tell me stories of an actual failure on the saw's part, (blade flying out, etc), it carries no responsibility. This same thinking will eventually make forks hard to find if it goes on long enough.

A shop I worked at a younger guy removed a finger on a moulder, but he didn't do it on one of the cutters. Morons are very creative in their stupidity.

Karl,
A young homeowners tries to fix his house and the first tool is a tablesaw.
After all, the woodworking tv gurus make it to look easy.
They even use tablesaws and other dangerours tools with
no guards or any safety devices.

The young homeowner (minus few fingers) is the victim of marketing
and greed. Very simple and the numbers can do the talking.

Sears stopped making the amputator ( RAS) only when their legal expenses,
liabilty, was higher than their (RAS) profits.

This is not about how YOU use the tablesaw.
This is about a national crisis, about trade stigma and about schools that they can't pay the liability insurance to teach the best trade.

How about spending 30 minutes in a woodworking safety class before you can buy a tablesaw? Courtecy of the tablesaw manufacturers.

yes, accidents are accidents and some people don't have what it takes to use a tablesaw. Allowing the sale of the most dangerous tool to anyone without training is more than an accident. To me, is a crime.

Thanks to forums like SMC and the work of few others, I hope to see the day where tablesaws are made with the same safety standards that apply to any other industry. Metalworking, machine shops, fabricating shops and many other "up to date" trades.

[Van Huskey]

Allowing the sale of the most dangerous tool to anyone without training is more than an accident. To me, is a crime.

.

You must really flip out over gun sales!!

[Karl Brogger]

When words like "crisis" and "deaths" are used in reference to woodworking equipment, (out side of logging), I'm done.

[Tom Veatch]

Hmmm, ICS?
Incident Command System, International Chili Society, Internet Connection Sharing, International Confernce on Supercomputing, International Commission on Stratigraphy,... OK, I give up. What the heck is ICS?

But, back to the topic. I'm not in the market for a cabinet, or other style, table saw, but if I were, a blade brake, a la Saw Stop or equivalent, would be a consideration, but not a deal breaker, either way.

[Paul Ryan]

Hmmm, ICS?
Incident Command System, International Chili Society, Internet Connection Sharing, International Confernce on Supercomputing, International Commission on Stratigraphy,... OK, I give up. What the heck is ICS?

But, back to the topic. I'm not in the market for a cabinet, or other style, table saw, but if I were, a blade brake, a la Saw Stop or equivalent, would be a consideration, but not a deal breaker, either way.

Sorry Tom,

The orginal sawstop table saw, was just that the sawstop table saw. A few years back sawstop introduced a contractor saw many now call that the CS. This past year sawstop introduced a new cabinet saw. Less beefy than their orginal saw. The new cabinet saw is now called the sawstop Professional Cabinet Saw, often refered to as PCS saw. The orginal saw still being manufactured that is marketed more for industrial use is now called the sawstop Industrial Cabinet Saw, other wise known as ICS.

[Paul Ryan]

Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Other than your take on kickback I agree with most of what you say.

Van,

I struggle with the senario where ordinary kick back could cause death. I can see and have heard of many cases when it has caused amputation. But I struggle with death. I guess I can see how it could happen, but I can not see how that would have happend far more often than flesh to blade contract? A piece of wood gets kicked back causing the operators hands to get drawn into the blade. That is a farly common occurance. But death, I have not heard of that?

Regardless, I am not saying that kickback is not to be taken lightly. But I believe it is far less likly to cause long lasting physical injury than flesh contact with the blade. However as I stated before, many times kickback causes flesh contact with the blade. So I believe if you could only have one saftey device the blade brake would be much more important. But were are very lucky that sawstop uses both devices. And other manufacturers, after being pressured from the UL have included riving knives on their new saws. If it weren't for the UL new saws wouldn't even have riving knives. And we would be using bascially the same design that has been around for, in the neighborhood of 80 years.

[Jeff Bratt]

Kickback has likely caused FAR more deaths than blade to flesh contact... I consider that the REAL injury.

Of the 50,000 to 60,000 injuries caused by table saws each year in the US, only about 1 or 2 result in death. Severe tablesaw injuries are generally amputations. The division between kickback and non-kick back injuries is roughly 50-50.

Part of the blame for the lack of good, effective safety features can be laid at the doorstep of woodworkers. The tool companies are selling into a market where people will cross the street to pay $29.95 less. And compared to a competitor that sells for $50 less, your saw will be tossed out of the big box stores. As long as consumers demand only the lowest prices, that's what we'll get...

[Van Huskey]

Van,

I struggle with the senario where ordinary kick back could cause death.

You yourself referenced broken ribs, so you shouldn't struggle with the potential death or SERIOUS internal injury if you know much about anatomy. Many of your internal organs are at risk with broken and displaced ribs.

I was not comparing the number of long term injuries just pointing out the WORST injuries are actually a result of kickback which you seemed to gloss over. I would suggest riving knives will prevent more death but blade brakes would prevent more long term impairments. As a result of this I would take a riving knife given the choice of one or the other as I can live with no fingers one one hand (my father did his whole life from 3 years old on and was a metal worker and woodworker) but I can't live dead. This is a moot point though since there is no situation where you could have a blade brake and could not have a RK.