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Thread: Anyone having serious bowing issues with plastics?

  1. #1

    Anyone having serious bowing issues with plastics?

    I've had my share of run in's with IPI plastics, but now my Rowmark is coming in the door with 1/4" bow in it.

    Specifically, anything 1/8" thick. I get Rowmark ADA material that's 1/8" thick for a specific job I run all the time. It's now coming in so bowed I'm having to break the job up, put a 12" x 12" granite tile on one side while the other side runs. I'm also getting IPI 1/8" thick black with white core doing the same thing.

    The 1/16" is also coming in with about 1/8" bow in it.

    I called Johnson after fighting the last batch and was told "We are unaware of any issues. Call Rowmark".

    So I call Rowmark and they say they are unaware of any issues, but it's being caused by humidity in the air. The protective plastic on one side keeps moisture from getting in, while the backside is unprotected, which allows for water to enter the product. That uneven distribution of humidity in the air is causing it to bow. They told me to remove the masking and let it sit flat for 24 hours.

    Did that. Same bow in it. Never leaves.

    I'm fighting this stuff really bad right now. Anyone having the same issues? Most all of this material is coming from Johnson Plastics Ohio branch. We've got some material coming from their Georgia branch to see if it resolves the problem.

    Anyone else, or am I alone? It didn't use to be like this. EVERYTHING from Johnson used to be dead flat.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
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    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Shepherd View Post
    The 1/16" is also coming in with about 1/8" bow in it.
    More than likely the shipper. Small light objects get loaded to the top and with the sun on the roof of the trailer for hours and hours on end, the rest is as they say...

    Not unusual in AZ as a lot of our stuff ships from NV and CA. Sun, sun, sun all the way.

    Only way around it is to order more than you need and put it into stock to flatten out so it is ready for the next order. Living hand-to-mouth ya gotta take what ya gets.

    Either that or buy a house brick with each shipment.
    Dave J
    Forums: Where all too often, logic is the first casualty.

  3. #3
    I've been unable to get it to flatten out. I've sat tiles on it, while on flat tile for weeks at a time with no correction.

    I'm about 2 shakes away from buying a used oven so I can heat it back up.

    It's all curled the same way every time. 1/4" curl in it, long ways.

    I've soaked it in water with the protective sheet off, sat that on dead flat items with tiles on top of them as well. Tried heating it, but that didn't end well. All I got was several sheets destined for the trash can.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  4. #4
    This has been an ongoing problem, more with IPI than Rowmark. I suspect it's a process issue dealing with the differing coefficients of expansion of two materials bonded together.

    Both companies have long been aware of the issue as has Johnson's. All have replaced material for me.

    Don't waste your time trying to flatten it. It doesn't happen. I do the same as you and weight it down with marble or some other heavy material or I cut it to eliminate the bow.

    I've tried the heat method and it's the worst of all and will likely ruin the material.

    It has nothing to do with humidity.
    Last edited by Mike Null; 03-15-2010 at 11:04 AM. Reason: add'l comments
    Mike Null

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  5. #5
    Here I thought it was just me!

    I have had to use double sided tape to hold it down while lasering.

    It seems the last few orders of metal have been that way too almost like it was "sprung" it's a pain taping it down but that is the only way it works.
    It get worse as the heat from the laser causes it to "pop" and I lose focus.

    While we are on the material end the laser brass seems to be "flacking" slightly on the edges when cut. I have a new cutter, but it did it with the old one to, any sugestions?

    Thanks,

    Marty
    Martin Boekers

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  6. #6
    I wish I could tape it down. It's vector cutting small object out of the sheet, so I need the honeycomb table to do them.

    One thing I'd like to encourage everyone that's having issues to do is to call your supplier and complain. When I called about 3 weeks ago, the guy I spoke with had a database of issues and he looked it up and said they had no reports since one time back several years ago and they resolved that issue.

    So if we're all out there experiencing it and no one's complaining to the suppliers (and I mean formally complaining, not casually mentioning it to the sales rep), then they won't know it's a problem.

    I'm expecting material from the Georgia plant today, so hopefully I'll have some good news to report.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  7. #7
    Where are you getting your metal? I STRONGLY suggest Main Trophy. I have Marco, JDS, and PDU 15 minutes from my shop and I'm probably at one or the other 3-4 times a week. With that said, I still buy almost all of my metal from Main Trophy. The only thing I'll buy from JDS is their gold aluminum and I also buy JDS laser aluminum.

    As far as plastic, I don't know if I've bought any 1/8" Rowmark recently. Again, I buy directly from the JDS warehouse so if the product isn't good, they will pick another piece for me.
    Equipment: IS400, IS6000, VLS 6.60, LS100, HP4550, Ricoh GX e3300n, Hotronix STX20
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  8. #8
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    Another thing you might consider is that when this stuff is produced, it is extruded in continuous lengths.... it is probably put up in large rolls for later cutting into sheets. I know that sheet metal is done this way. There is supposed to be a flattener that makes it all flat when cut into sheets, probably using heat and tension. I suspect that this machine is not operating properly, or you received material from closer to the core of the roll.

    Just something to consider.

    Mark
    ULS X-2 660, Corel X3, Haas VF4, Graphtec vinyl cutter, Xenetech rotaries (3), Dahlgren Tables, Gorton P2-3, New Hermes pantographs (2), and recently, 24" x 36" chinese router. Also do sublimation, sand blasting, & metal photo. Engraver since 1975.

  9. #9
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    All the engraving plastic I purchase has the same problems. I purchase from Johnson's Plastics at CNU exclusively, JDS won't seel products to schools.

    I will report my findings to them ASAP.
    .

  10. #10
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    Now may be a good time to upgrade that blower... give the vector table a really strong suction capability, like what your CNC machine has
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

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  11. #11
    I've thought about making a vacuum table for my engravers(something that could be with the rotary & laser). Taping down super thin plastics can be a pain. Vacuum table would solve that, but I don't think it's worth the couple hundred bucks it would cost when tape is only a few pennies.

    As for the plastics, anyone ever spending too much and get New Hermes plastic? It's over priced and typically not worth the money, but if this is an issue with Rowmark stuff, New Hermes might be the answer for now.
    Equipment: IS400, IS6000, VLS 6.60, LS100, HP4550, Ricoh GX e3300n, Hotronix STX20
    Software: Adobe Suite & Gravostyle 5
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Moshinsky View Post
    As for the plastics, anyone ever spending too much and get New Hermes plastic? It's over priced and typically not worth the money, but if this is an issue with Rowmark stuff, New Hermes might be the answer for now.
    New Hermes materials are outrageously over priced. Many years ago (40 or more) they used to be the only supplier of engraving material. I would rather imagine that fossilization has set in, and they are incapable of competition. Recently, I needed a bronze colored sheet to match existing material... ir was over $30 for a 12" x 24" sheet! Similar things can be said about their CNC engraving equipment... overpriced, proprietary fonts and software, and so forth. It is why you commonly see New Hermes equipment for sale in the Engraver's Journal.

    Places like Johnson Plastics, Ability Plastics, and especially Main Trophy Supply eat New Hermes for lunch.

    To get back to the subject, a vacuum table is really a neccessity if you are serious about making a living engraving. They are not hard to make; I have made quite a few over the years, even before the lasers came out. We made many thousands of badges using a vacuum table made with the rotary engraver and layers of engraving plastic. It worked quite well, and allowed us to cut out the badges with rounded corners with no trimming afterwards.

    Don't forget that the rotary and laser machines are good general purpose tools that can make tooling as well as engrave.

    Mark
    ULS X-2 660, Corel X3, Haas VF4, Graphtec vinyl cutter, Xenetech rotaries (3), Dahlgren Tables, Gorton P2-3, New Hermes pantographs (2), and recently, 24" x 36" chinese router. Also do sublimation, sand blasting, & metal photo. Engraver since 1975.

  13. I have had some bowing problems with Rowmark as well. I usually order it from JDS or our local supplier but both shipments have had bowing issues. I've also had some problems with the actual plastic as well. I know not everything is perfect but a couple of sheets I have ordered have had flaws to the point that I couldn't use that piece of the plastic. I have noticed this particularly with the metals like eurogold or bright silver.

  14. #14
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    Same problem here, with my same supplier as the last 6 years. I've overcome it by a few bits of very thin DS tape and sticking it onto a sacrificial sheet of 1/4" acrylic that was used for cutting out shapes, so there are may openings for the air to flow through.



    Sammamish, WA

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Hintz View Post
    Now may be a good time to upgrade that blower... give the vector table a really strong suction capability, like what your CNC machine has
    ^^^This. We have a blower that is large enough that it literally sucks the material in place. Material can be bowed somewhat and we don't have issues.

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