What does it take for a great project?

[Donnie Raines]

Rich,
If you think about where things should go when building your shop....you are designing. If you happen to make a skech of the layout...you are really designing. If you don't make any sketches and give it no thought....good luck!

So if you think something out, but make very limited sketches....what does that mean?

This topic/discussion is very thought provocating. I simply view something I like, take a few measurements and then go to town. I do this on big and little things. Cleary the choice of lumber is in additon to the project phase. I dont know....I find that if I work from a general plan I make mistakes.....or if I draw a detailed picture...I make mistakes. So I simply write sown rough measurements.

I feel that each of us have our own means of operations. Professional, serious hobbist or the beginer...we all have our own way. To say that you have to do this, or you must do that is a bit unfair(though, I would agree that someting on grand scale would require much thought). I feel very comfortable with my means operation and I suspect that many others prefer a more detailed means to achive thier goal. I dont know....I guess thats some sort of talent i have(as I reach around to pat myself on the back.... )....I dont need to make detailed project pictures to achive my goal.

Maybe thats why I am just a serious hobbist...

[Jim Becker]

I simply view something I like, take a few measurements and then go to town. I do this on big and little things.

Donnie, I think that many of us work in this manner. But do you also find yourself stepping back and looking at the work in progress and envisioning different ways to proceed and then making a choice based on those mental considerations? I do that a lot and consider it part of the design process.

[Alan Turner]

Probably all of us design on the fly, to a greater or lesser extent. I have found, with increasing experience, that the more I draw and plan at the beginning, instead of on the fly, the finished piece is better proportioned. This is not to say that through error, or material shortage, or whatever, that there are no changes, but as I gain experience there are fewer changes.

[Donnie Raines]

Donnie, I think that many of us work in this manner. But do you also find yourself stepping back and looking at the work in progress and envisioning different ways to proceed and then making a choice based on those mental considerations? I do that a lot and consider it part of the design process.

Sure....I do that.

I never question the idea/defintion of design as it is being applied here. I feel that there is simply a varity of ways to accomplish ones goal....drawing/skecthing may or may not be a part of that process. Yes, as a project moves along I step back and evaluate to item. But I do not draw things out in detail at the begining of a project.

I also think that ones taste in projects should be considered here. Often when a project is more cutting edge(something other then the norm) it is reffered to as "sophisticated". While Shaker design is rather simple in structure, i would not call it "unsophistacated"(allow me to point out that while I am prevy to Shaker style, I admire other styles, thus I am not defending the style that I choose to work in..simply drawing a comparison). The more cutting edge a project is, the more detail within the item as well is usually found, thus would be logical that they require more thought as to how they should/could be constructed. This must be consider when we talk about design. Why over analyze something if it does not require it....thats my take.

[Donnie Raines]

Probably all of us design on the fly, to a greater or lesser extent. I have found, with increasing experience, that the more I draw and plan at the beginning, instead of on the fly, the finished piece is better proportioned. This is not to say that through error, or material shortage, or whatever, that there are no changes, but as I gain experience there are fewer changes.

Alan,

I agree! In my original post I stated that through the process of building things, you gain/retain(we hope.. ) the knowledge of what works and what does not...what makes things easier...and what does not....what makes things safer as well.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Maybe I've missed something but.....I worked as a draftsman as a young man.....while I'm perfectly capable of making pencil and paper drawings....I have and use a couple of cad programs .......in designing my shop and landscaping my yard...setting up my sprinkler system......I, also, in my everyday job, envision things..3 dimensional images in my head....I have to...on the fly....in the course of troubleshooting MR imaging problems. I, also, envision things in my mind when designing / building. The gazebo I talked about.....I measured the tallest of those >>>>> geese and used it's height to set the height of the gazebo proportionally. I don't think things have to be drawn in the course of designing. My designing problem comes from finding original lines or ideas that I like and think will be liked by others. Maybe Mark's idea of sketching and carrying it in my pocket while viewing other things and updating as ideas come would remedy my "chore"?.......More questions............

[Donnie Raines]

Maybe I've missed something but.....I worked as a draftsman as a young man.....while I'm perfectly capable of making pencil and paper drawings....I have and use a couple of cad programs .......in designing my shop and landscaping my yard...setting up my sprinkler system......I, also, in my everyday job, envision things..3 dimensional images in my head....I have to...on the fly....in the course of troubleshooting MR imaging problems. I, also, envision things in my mind when designing / building. The gazebo I talked about.....I measured the tallest of those >>>>> geese and used it's height to set the height of the gazebo proportionally. I don't think things have to be drawn in the course of designing. My designing problem comes from finding original lines or ideas that I like and think will be liked by others. Maybe Mark's idea of sketching and carrying it in my pocket while viewing other things and updating as ideas come would remedy my "chore"?.......More questions............

Paralysis from analysis.......

Never built a gazebo....but that I would need to have a plan!

[Dennis Peacock]

Mark,

An EXCELLENT thread.....!!!!!!!!!!!

Putting all tools aside....We often times don't know HOW to use what tools we have to the best of it's own use. In this rush, rush world, we are so in a hurry to crank out a project and call it "done". How can we learn design if we don't experiment with a design that we think may work for us. I for one like having a design idea, putting it into a project and see how it comes out.

It's just the overall method of work that I have troubles with in getting my idea and picture in my mind translated into the final look of the project. This is my fault as I get tired of working on a project and simly put, just want it done and out of the shop. Again my fault. I do my best work when I take my time, think through each process and again....take my time. Many of us are not production shops...so why do we work in such a hurry? Why can't we slow down, enjoy the experience and smell the fine wood we have in the shop while we work on our own idea of a design.

Because of the hurry, hurry world we live in today, kinda translates into our own hobbiest shops and sometimes causes us to take shorter cuts than we really wanted to. Now grated, we're not making $10K pieces of furniture here, but after all, isn't is all about our own design ideas and learning how to get that idea to a finished piece for ourselve?

Thanks for this thread Mark. Dennis - slowing down to smell the shavings from here on out.

[Mark Singer]

I find the conversation very interesting. I think we all design at some level when we build, unless you follow a canned plan exactly. Thinking about where things go, choosing materials, joinery layout...it is all part of design. The more thought and sensitivity that is spent before the project begins the stronger the design process and that should leed to a more satisfying product. Of course, this is a generalization...some of my best homes were designed quickly on a napkin . Some times the juices just flow...sometimes it is a real effort to arrive at something worthy of construction. Just the thought of building and design are almost inseparable since the thought of buiding something creates a mental image. Once the image is manifested and improved, modified ,added to, pictured with a certain wood ....design has begun! Where you stop ...well that is always a big question...some designs are taken too far. It is like a book or movie that should have stopped before the last chapter. With experience a designer (we are all designers) knows if the design is good. He can visulize it from the sketches. The tools that help are the ones we all use...sketches, plans, mock-ups, models. Design can lead the way to better projects. Things that work better , satisfy their intended function and even look like some thought went into them....because it did.

[Mark Singer]

Dave,

You can see on this forum the choice of which brand of tool to buy is also very personal...eveyone has their own favorite, yet it is a popular subject. I always try to be supportive of others work also. We all have pride in what we do and we are all learning. Design is just another topic worthy of discussion and interaction and it can make a significant difference in our work.

Mark,

I think you've answered your own question regarding design and the lack of discussion about design on our forum. Design is incredibly personal. While I always comment about those original designs that I like, I'd never tell someone that I dislike their design. I spend a great deal of time planning the design of what I do, but I consult only LOML on the decisons that are being made because we are the customers of all of my current work.

BTW.... please keep up the thought-provoking threads and work. Dave.

[Rich Konopka]

Mark:

I have to tell you this is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to the creek. I hereby nominate you for a "Creeker" award for best thread of the year

Does anyone care to design an award for Mark?

[Mark Singer]

Mark:

I have to tell you this is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to the creek. I hereby nominate you for a "Creeker" award for best thread of the year

Does anyone care to design an award for Mark?

Rich,
Thank you...I accept the beautiful award...and here is the short coming of the internet....where is my kiss and hug from Hallie Berry or Uma Thurman....well with a creative mind and advanced visulization techniques.....nah! Its not going to happen...

[Michael Stafford]

Whenever I have an idea for a new box I have a visualization in my mind. But I have to put it on paper and draw it to scale to see what it looks like in 2 dimensions. Sometimes I draw it in full scale with front, side and top views with the wood thicknesses drawn to scale. I guess that is pretty anal.

My other problem is that I will find a piece of wood and will not know how to use it until I come up with the "right" box idea. Conversely I will have a box idea and can't build it until I find the right wood.

None of that means I have good designs because I don't think I am particularly creative. I think inside the box too much.

By the way Mark in my experiences kissing movie stars isn't all its cracked up to be. Of course I have only kissed Lassie and Gabby Hayes.

[Chris Padilla]

Build a box, think like a box...get out of the box!!!!

I'm pretty anal, too. I can take some of these CAD programs to the extreme some times. Sketch-up looks like a dynamite program to learn on but I just can't seem to convince myself to pony up $$$s for it. It is easier to get the next Festool gadget, however!

I think I could design some imaginative "one-off" items...I often come up with them while jogging (sorry, Scott C.! ). However, I find I have trouble staring at a basic room. A fair amount of us do not have custom-built homes (I'm gathering) and so we are stuck with these basic boxes or cubes to fill in somehow.

I keep coming back to my EC I've been working on forever. It started very basic and functional: I need a TV spot of x size, I need DVD storage, I need book storage, I need home theater storage, I need room for home theater speakers, I want shelves for some artsy-stuff, I want accent lights. All this stuff goes around a fireplace at the end of one room. My wife and I started drawing out basic boxes (we have 5 sections of boxes) and even throwing in some glass doors and figured wood raised panels, it all still looked boxy and somewhat disconnected. It took some serious work and setup in a CAD program I have for us to finall persuade the design away from the mundane.

It still needs work but we are getting there. Anyway, the CAD helped tremendously, I think, because we had trouble with visualizing the scale of the room and how this EC would fit in.

Okay, enough blabbering for a Friday before work lets out!

[Joe Mioux]

Mark, this thread has great velocity! I have really enjoyed reading all the posts.

I do have a question and I hope it adds positively to this thread. What makes good design? What are the mechanics of good design?

best regards
joe