New member with a big question - part 2

[Rob Strause]

Hi again,

Okay, so now that I posted an intro, you can imagine the question. A series of question I suppose. How best to outfit my shop. It will be half of my garage. I'll add power, lights, etc... but its still half of a 2-car garage. The sportscar will be going, but it would be nice to keep the motorcycle.

After reading magazines and forums, I decided the obvious, that I should start with a good table saw. As I started pricing contractor saws, it seemed that good ones, with good fence, long rails, mobile bases, etc... started to get as expensive as entry-level cabinet saws. So I thought a reasonable cabinet saw would make more sense then - especially after realizing that a cab saw actually takes up less space with the motor in the cabinet and dust collection is superior.

My biggest concern with table saws was processing sheet goods. Since I'll be doing a lot of floor-to-ceiling bookcases, ripping large backpanels will be necessary. I'll be working alone and that seemed like a difficult thing to do with contractor saws. And still unweildly with a cab saw with a long fence. So I just assumed a good cab saw, with a long railed fence woudl be the only option. (of course by the time you option up the entry-level saws this way they're nearly as expensive as a Unisaw).

So just as I decided to pony up for an expensive cab saw (there are some great deals out there right now) I went to the local Woodcraft store in Delaware and saw the Festool system. That really seemed like a good idea. Cutting boards down with a CS was obviously going to be required, but "finishing up" a 40" by 80" backpanel was still going to be unweildly. The Festool system seemed like it would solve that problem. I noticed several of you here use it and have had a lot of time since your early posts to get experienced with it. So, I thought what you think about the system now and to test some of my assumptions, since I'm really guessing.

So now the big questions.

First - am I right to be concerned over ripping large panels by myself on "any" table saw, or is it easier and safer than I think it will be?

Is the Festool system really that good, that I wouldn't have to cleanup backpanels?

I assume I would still want a table saw. Do you Festool'ers still use your TS, or have you found it unecessary? I'd imagine it's still a good tool to have for convenience and repeatability for many operations. But, do you still think I'd need a cab saw with long rails, or could I get by with short rails, maybe even go back to a contractor saw?

I know there are a lot of "depends". The Festool system is expensive, but I do need to upgrade my major power tools and buy new blades anyway. I know there are other otions to the Festool system, but my workshop is a garage and I have a wife with asthma, so dust collection is a real benefit.

So I guess this boils down to....

How good is the Festool system for the situation I've described and how does it impact the buildout of a brand new shop? Particularly the TS.

Forgive the lengthy intro and for your input. I can't wait to get started!

Thanks again,
Rob

[Lee Schierer]

Ripping plywood alone can be challenging. I do it occassionaly in my shop on a contractor saw with an extended home made outfeed table that is 4 feet long. So in combination with my table, I have over 6 feet of an eight foot sheet supported at the ed of the cut. This is important since you can't be in two places at once. Supporting and guiding the sheet to start the cut is a bit tricky, but without support on the outfeed side, you end up dancing around your table saw while you try ot continue the cut, hold the piece to the fence and keep it balanced on the small table all at the same time.

Therefore, whatever saw you choose, make sure the outfeed surface is large enough to support the pieces you intend to cut without tipping either the piece or the saw.

[Tyler Howell]

Beautiful family.
I have a respectable cab saw and adding Festool products to my shop. As MOR WW I would say always buy quality equipment. You can add as you go. The going discussion is a good table saw is your most versatile and useful tool.
To tell you the truth I'm still afraid of mine and we are getting to know each other slowly.
I use a guided Csaw to dimension my flat panels and the Cab Saw for the finished product.
One thing you can count on here is opinions. You'll get many more

[Jamie Buxton]

Rob --

Using a stationary saw to make a good first cut on a 4x8 sheet of plywood takes more space than most of us have. You need 8 feet in front of the saw, 8 feet in back of the saw, and infeed and outfeed tables for the plywood while you guide it through the saw. Me, I can barely lift a full sheet of plywood, much less guide it accurately through a cabinet saw. I always use a guided-saw system like the Festool for the first cuts in a 4x8 sheet. I don't use the table saw until I've broken the sheet down into smaller pieces -- ones which I can easily feed accurately through the saw.

There are many Festool fans on this board who really like the Festool guided saw system. There are also economy-minded folks who just use a good straightedge to guide a less-expensive saw. You pays your money and you takes your choice.


Jamie

[Steven Wilson]

If you started with Festool products and then picked up a Minimax CU300 Smart and a MM16 bandsaw you would be all set. Eventually you'll get there.

[Lars Thomas]

Welcome to the Creek Rob. I hope you enjoy your stay. More importantly, welcome to wood working!

The guided circular saw system (GCSS) of which ever brand you prefer is great for breaking down sheet goods. But I hardly feel it is a substitute for a tale saw for most wood working projects. I couldn't imagine prepping door parts with a GCSS.

As for getting a clean edge, the GCSS will certainly provide that. However, the edge left by a free-handed circular saw is almost always fine too - with respect to case backs. This is because the back panel in the case will generally sit in a 3/8" dado.

I started with a contractor saw (from a major US retailer) and used happily for about 6 or 7 years. I then upgraded to a Cabinet Saw. I don't think either of your threads mentioned a budget, but if you can swing the cabinet saw you are likely to save yourself an upgrade down the road. Personally, for you wife's health and comfort alone, it probably makes sense to jump up to the CS - even if it means waiting on other tools. Guaranteed, you will NEVER say, 'Geez, I wish I had the smaller saw’.

If I were starting from scratch intent on building case goods, I would prioritize the major tools as follows:
Table Saw
Dust Collector
Planer
Miter Saw
1 HP Router & various profile bits
Band Saw
3 HP Router with raised panel bit(s)

Note: Jointer is not included in above list. I have one that I rarely use. My supplier will give me one straight edge and I am satisfied with glue-ups coming straight off the table saw. The trade off is I have to be more careful to select flat stock.

Well, any way, welcome to the creek. I hope the above advise helps you come to a decision. Lars

[Bill Arnold]

Rob,

As someone else already said, you'll get lots of opinions and here's another one. I handle sheet goods like others have said: guided circular saw for initial cuts, then cleaning up on the table saw. Like most folks, I have my table saw facing the large garage door and about 4' inside it. In addition, my tablesaw (with its extension table including router) is on a mobile base which allows me to roll it farther out if I'm using it to cut sheet goods. By having it in a more open part of the garage, I can handle a full 1/4" sheet easily.

In my case, I got the Jet JTAS-10XL tablesaw earlier this year when they had the special that included the extension table and router. There are much more expensive saws and there are cheaper saws. This is a solid performer and, like any other saw in any price range, is only as good as the blade you put on it. So far, I've used nothing but Freud blades and have been very satisfied with them. There are more expensive blades and cheaper blades; these are good blades and won't break the bank.

Second to the table saw, I probably use my miter saw the most although my new bandsaw is getting a workout. I seem to do a lot of frame and panel construction, so am constantly going between my tablesaw and miter saw. I have the DeWalt 706 dual miter and am very pleased with it.

I recently purchased a Grizzly G0513 17" bandsaw to replace an older, entry level saw I had. I've resawed 12" mahogany with it using Timberwolf blades and it works great. You can spend three times as much for a bandsaw with no more capacity than mine has.

There are umpteen other tools to consider along the way, of course. There's nothing like a new project to 'justify' the purchase of a new tool! Reviews in magazines usually provide good relative data. Forums such as this are a great aid as well. Some people will always steer you toward the most expensive while others will stay the price/value route. I'm definitely a p/v guy; I'd like to have some money left over for wood!

Regards,

[Jim Becker]

Welcome, Rob. Your question about dealing with sheet goods is a great one. This side of a panel saw or Euro sliding table saw, a guided saw system such as the Festool ATF55 or ATF65 or an "economy" version is the way to go. All you need is a piece of foam insulation to support the work up off the floor and the saw system. The advantage that the Festool setup has is really excellent dust control when combined with the CT-22 extractor or similar. The reason I recommend the guided saw system is that it allows normal humans to easily and safely handle sheet goods--something most of us will be challenged to do on US-style table saws. And you can go right to finished cuts.

(BTW, the best way to buy Festool from is Bob Marino at http://festool.safeshopper.com ...IMHO, of course)

[Ed Falis]

I'll second Jim's recommendation of the Festool saw and rail setup. I've never needed to go over to the tablesaw to recut anything and it seriously reduces the effort while the panel big, or if you need to make a taper cut of some kind.

That said, I wouldn't give up the tablesaw either.

- Ed

[Kevin Arceneaux]

I don't have a lot of room to store things, so I was thinking of making a small knockdown grid type system that I can lay the plywood on. I am short and cannot reach all the way accross the sheet to make a nice clean complete cut, I usually screw up the last foor or so.

[Greg Mann]

Rob,

The Festool system can solve problems you don't even know you are going to have. Below is a pic of a challenge I ran into last night with a brand new cabinet from a bunch I am installing in our kitchen. One edge of the faceframe had not been milled properly and had about a 1/16 inch taper over the last 4 inches. Trying to match it to the adjoining cabinet made for a hideous gap in a very conspicuous location. My choices? Live with it, make the retailer replace it and wait, or fix it. With the Festool GCSS, it took 5 minutes, which included carrying the saw and vac up from the basement, clamping it to the faceframe and making the trim cut. This would have been possible on a TS, but not without sliding the cabinet on the finished face! Came out perfect. This was done with the saw pointed right into the living room. LOML did not even blink. I have cut MDF with the GCSS on my cutting table in the carpeted portion of our basement with vitually no evidence of dust left on the floor. If your wife has asthma this could be the most considerate investment you could make.

With all due respect to your local Woodcraft, you have the distinguished Mr. Bob Marino in your backyard. He is Mr. Festool around these parts. You can visit his website, PM him, or give him a call to find out more about why there are so many Festool aficianandos around here.

I do agree with the others, however, that a TS or BS is a very important part of any WWer's arsenal. In my case, I bought a Bosch tabletop saw before I was knowledgeable enough to know better. Not that it is a bad saw, just that it had limitations I did not understand. Thankfully, with the Festool system, most of those limitations can be easily dealt with and I don't need to attempt cuts for which the tabletop was never intended. Makes my work much safer to boot.

Greg

[Greg Mann]

I don't have a lot of room to store things, so I was thinking of making a small knockdown grid type system that I can lay the plywood on. I am short and cannot reach all the way accross the sheet to make a nice clean complete cut, I usually screw up the last foor or so.

There is a very nice knockdown system detailed in an article by Nick Engler in a magazine supplement 'Jigs and Fixtures' (IIRC). If I can find my copy I will give the full name and date or maybe someone else recalls this. I think Chris P. and Frank P. also made versions. It is slick.

Greg

[Craig Colvin]

So here's yet another opinion. I have never used a guided CS. I cut a lot of sheet goods on my table saw and while they are sometimes a pain to handle by myself it is doable. It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend, but my impression is that you will get a lot more out of a good table saw then with only a guided CS. If you can afford both then go for it.

[John R Lucas]

I have been producing a DVD on cabintemaking with a Festool only shop so you can see where I am coming from. I have a very well equiped shop with TS jointer and everything else. For the puspose of the video, we have tied off the Festool side and using it for cabinet making. I know first hand that you can make perfect cabinets with the Festool plunge saw, guide rail system.

Here is a sub-menu of Festool stories: http://www.woodshopdemos.com/men-fes.htm

[Ted Shrader]

Rob -

First, Welcome to the Creek! A great place to hang out and exchange ideas.

Your question is an interesting one. A guided saw system (even a straight board clamped down cut with a circular saw) will allow you to do full sheets of plywood by yourself. That said, only a couple of cuts are required to get the plywood down to reasonably sized pieces that are easily manageable. Most of the follow on cuts to build even full sized bookcases is done on pieces small enough to use a table saw. I think you will find money “invested” in a well built TS will go a long way to producing good work you will be proud of.

I have heard that there are at least three ways to do most every task in wood working. There is no real “right” way for any particular task – as long as it is safe. Sometimes you are limited by tools, other times by space, etc – and those limitations dictate your method for that particular task. Other times you have the luxury of choosing which method you will use to do a task. It is much better to have the choice than to be forced into a particular method. As your skills develop and you acquire more tools, those options will open up.

Any possibilty you could get some help for those two or three initial cuts on a TS? Then you could do all the remaining cuts alone. If not find a piece of straight wood or piece of aluminum to guide a circular saw. Think there is more bang-for-the-buck in a TS than a guided saw system in your case.

Welcome and good luck in your decision!

Regards,
Ted