Do I want to go Tankless?

[Ben Franz]

In many (most?) cases, the tankless heaters require both a larger gas/propane supply pipe and a larger flue to vent the exhaust. This was the main reason I decided to stick with the tank style. There have been articles in Fine Homebuilding and Journal of Light Construction over the last several years. One article by a reputable plumber was an in depth discussion about how he installs these systems with an auxillary tank. I couldn't stop laughing long enough to actually read the article to find out if it was serious.

[Bryan Morgan]

Since the announcement of the appliance rebates, my husband and I were thinking about getting a tankless water heater system. We don't really have any problems with
current system (tank) other then it being about 10 years old and it is in my workshop (garage). We do have a water softener hooked up, I don't know if that effects anything.

So have you checked into this at all? Does anyone have a tankless system? Are you happy with it? All opinions and suggestions appreciated.

We were also thinking about changing our dishwasher too, as long as there are rebates. It is also 10 years old and so loud . It was probably the cheapest unit the builder
could find . Anyone have a really good dishwasher? It is usually just the 2 of us, so we run it about every other day unless we entertain. My husband also insists on
prewashing which absolutely drives me nuts especially since I try to be GREEN (key word: trying)

I thought about this recently too... I don't care about being "green" at all, I am just trying to save some cash from heating. But, since my gas bill isn't more than $30 or so I don't know how much I'd actually save after factoring in the cost of the unit with installation (quoted about $2000 for my house).

Also, the #1 reason I didn't go tankless is that theres 40 gallons of fresh water sitting there. Given the state of the country and all these earthquakes we've been having lately, I think that water might come in handy.

That said, my friend switched his out for a tankless about a year ago and his family likes it alot. They got some gizmos that go in the bathroom that also heat the water for the sinks.

[Jim Tobias]

This has been debated on this forum before. My vote says it is absolutely worth it to switch to tankless. It may be difficult if you are trying to install yourself, but if you have a trustworthy HVAC/Plumbing company, it is fairly simple. Nver run out of hot water if you size the tankless model correctly. My wife and I have had all of my relatives(20) here for Labor Day Weekend and we have showered, washed dishes, clothes, etc nonstop and never ran out of hot water.
+1 on Rinnai tankless
Jim

[Lori Kleinberg]

Oh man, you guys have given me more info then I think I wanted . Seriously this has been great. Where I live there is no such thing as cold ground water (at least
not 10 months out of the year) For that period of time there is no way to get cold water out of the tap. We spoke with 2 different people about the gas requirements,
how knowledgeable they really are, I don't know, but both said we would have to run new gas lines (dedicated 3/4") from the main. That in itself, I think, is a major
price barrier not to mention the additional venting required.
My hubby and I agree that we will need alot more info before making a definite decision, but you guys have given us a great foundation to work with.

I believe we will stick with upgrading the kitchen appliances, one at a time. Thanks to you guys (see "oven went kaput") the oven will probably be the last to be replaced.
Doesn't anybody want to talk about dishwashers ? Maybe I should start another thread about that.
We will also be needing to replace all the windows in the house soon (maybe another year, two at most), and I hate my sliding glass door and would like to put a french
door in. I think we will have enough to do for a while.

[Chris Kennedy]

I've considered tankless, and my take on it is that as a retrofit, it can be a bit of a hit or miss. If your house is designed for it from the outset, they can be quite good. Installing one as a booster or in an addition may also make sense. Removing the tank from your garage may not make sense.

As for dishwashers, we bought a Bosch a couple of years ago and love how quiet it is. We couldn't watch television and run the dishwasher before, and now we can. It is a little slower than other models, but there are only three of us, so it isn't that big a deal unless we have a lot of people staying with us.

Cheers,

Chris

[Alan Trout]

I have had a Seisco electric tankless for several years in my home. It works very well and I would do it again in a heartbeat. But electric units take more planning because of the service requirements. I have a sub-panel dedicated just to the water heater with four 30Amp breakers with number 8 copper circuits to the unit as they recommend.

I have gas in the home but I had no good way to vent. At the time most of the gas units had to some horizontal run in the vent system and there was no way for me to do that. Also the way the Seisco units are designed you do not have to use a temperature and pressure relief valve in the system. Also the Seisco units are very small my RA28 is probably 14"x14"X6" so it was very easy to place.

Performance is very good but the key is how much temperature rise you need and how you use hot water. Even in the winter our water rarely gets below 65 degrees so to get the water to 110 degrees does not take much rise. On my system I can run two fixtures in the house such as two shower heads full blast and it keeps up without a problem. You learn to mix very little cold water with showers or baths but it is also great for safety of small children because it is impossible to scald someone in 110 degree water.

The electrics are viable option in my opinion and can be every bit as efficient as the gas units especially with the proper planning and design.

[Al Willits]

Do a search on tankless and you'll find several posts, just make sure to consider all the costs before you have one installed, Bosch says (they make several brands of them) every two years to have a tech come rebuilt/inspect theirs.

fwiw I work where we service them, out of appox 375 service techs none have one where a choice is availible.

Check on venting, gas lines required, service availibility, warrt, etc.

Dishwasher?
Pick one that fits your dishes and how you like to use them.
Quiet is just insulation, I can make almost any cheap unit quiet, two most popular brands with our techs seem to be Bosch and Whirlpool.

Whirlpool makes several different brand names, including Kitchenaid and some sears units.

Our choice was a Kitchenaid, same as Whirlpool, but it was on sale..

Al

[Jim O'Dell]

I read some a few years ago about tankless. At that time, if you had gas, it probably made sense. If you had electric, they weren't very efficient, and had more maintenance issues. Maybe that has changed some now? We have an all electric house unfortunately, with no gas pipes in the area. I prefer not to have a propane tank, and there's not a good place to put one anyway. Funny we get a small royalty check from a gas well each month!!
We got a new dishwasher a year ago Christmas. We got the Maytag unit. LOML wanted the silverware to be on the door because that's what she is used to. This was the only one of the major brands, at least in our price range of 5-600 that had it. It does a very good job, and is super quiet. But then the 300.00 unit we got at our last house, GE brand, was very quiet also.
I'd say of the major brands, find the one with the features you want. Jim.

[Tom Godley]

The temp of the water does not matter -- you can size them accordingly. When the incoming water temp changes dramatically from summer to winter -- that is when you can have problems. You must size the unit for the coldest water at a given flow and if the unit has a static output it will be oversized and cycle in the summer.

The whole point is to eliminate standby loss and extend output. So if you have a weekend house or a house at the beach that you only use on the weekends and then require a lot of hot water -- they are worth trying a switch out.

But the saving for a small family using the normal amount of hot water everyday is often less than the cost of the switch. Differing fuel costs and rebates can obviously affect this.

They are also great when you put in an addition. Say you add a master bath with a big tub. Using an instant unit eliminate the long water run from the current system. The standby loss from the over sized storage tank required for the infrequently used tub is eliminated. And they are small and easy to find a place for.

[Neal Clayton]

I thought about this recently too... I don't care about being "green" at all, I am just trying to save some cash from heating. But, since my gas bill isn't more than $30 or so I don't know how much I'd actually save after factoring in the cost of the unit with installation (quoted about $2000 for my house).

Also, the #1 reason I didn't go tankless is that theres 40 gallons of fresh water sitting there. Given the state of the country and all these earthquakes we've been having lately, I think that water might come in handy.

That said, my friend switched his out for a tankless about a year ago and his family likes it alot. They got some gizmos that go in the bathroom that also heat the water for the sinks.

the whole "saving money from buying this" rarely if ever works out to be the case.

think about how long it'd take you to get 2000 dollars back from a 30 dollar a month gas bill.

the only one saving is the guy you buy the thing from, putting some of that 2000 into his savings account.

that said, for the purposes of persistent hot water, i think they're great. depends on whether or not that's worth the money to you.

[Michael Weber]

Jim, since you live in an all electric home you may want to check out the new heat pump water heaters available now. Very efficient compared to an standard electric models.

[Pat Germain]

I have a Bosch and an Asko also and I like the Kitchen Aid better. The european units do not power-dry the dishes and have an extremely long cycle time.

I've been running a Bosch dishwasher for about six years and I love it. FYI, Bosch dishwashers do "power dry" the dishes. You just have to turn this feature on. Since electricity is crazy expensive in Germany, the "heated dry" feature on a Bosch dishwasher is OFF by default. You simply look in the instruction manual which tells you how to set it to ON.

I agree the cycle time is kinda long. But it's so quiet, I typically can't even hear it running. And it does a great job at getting everything clean without having to pre-wash anything. Strangely, it does not have a food grinder. Yet, there's almost never anything left in the strainer.

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim, since you live in an all electric home you may want to check out the new heat pump water heaters available now. Very efficient compared to an standard electric models.

Interesting! I'll look into it. Thanks!

And to correct my earlier post...Our dishwasher is not a Maytag, it's an Amanna. Washer and dryer is Maytag. Just in case someone goes looking for a Maytag with the silverware basket on the door. Jim.

[Al Willits]

Interesting! I'll look into it. Thanks!

And to correct my earlier post...Our dishwasher is not a Maytag, it's an Amanna. Washer and dryer is Maytag. Just in case someone goes looking for a Maytag with the silverware basket on the door. Jim.

I'm betting your Amana is made by Maytag...

Al

[Chuck Stewart]

I installed a Rinnai tankless in Sept. of last year and have had no issues, the wife and I love it. The only changes have been lifestyle. The burner will not fire until it registers a significant water demand, so no more trickling the hot say when you want to brush your teeth and want to infuse just a little hot with the cold. My bathroom is next to the laundry room where it is installed so I can hear it fire and know when I'm getting hot water, but the wife's is not but you just have to know to give the valve a good 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Also, I used to turn the hot on and off while while rinsing my shaver to conserve water but I can't do that now because the burner shuts down each time and there's a delay where cold water gets in the line when I crank the hot again. So now I just leave the hot on until I'm done shaving. So yes I'm saving on the gas not having to heat the tank but I know I'm using more water with this system.