Need help making a sale

[Jamie Buxton]

This is what I envisioned Carl was describing.
Probably wrong but I think it would work. Bushings on a rod. Bushings fit into counterbores in the bottom of each drawer and establish the separation between drawers. Rod epoxied into holes in the top and bottom.

Any play in between the shaft and the drawer's hole will allow the drawer to sag. A little sag might be unnoticeable, but if the drawers sag different amounts, it'll be real obvious. In the extreme case, the sag could be enough that the far corner of the drawer rubs on the drawer below it. On the other hand, if the fit between the shaft and the drawer is too tight, the whole jewelry box will rotate when you attempt to open one drawer. Seems like real precision work.

[Dave Richards]

Jamie, you have a good point. Perhaps if, instead of only a bushing, there is a bushing and a small bearing like this
http://www.smallparts.com/images/bearings/BR1.jpg
pressed into the counterbore.

SmallParts.com lists one with a bore of 1/4" and outside diameter of 5/8". It is BR04.

Edited because the picture of the bearing was way big.

[Carl Eyman]

Hey, how about making the base of marble or granite. Then you don't have to cover it with anything. I'm sure a counter top guy could drill a hole in it to hold the rod. Now, ready for this? Instead of making the trays square how about making Shaker round or oval boxes. You know the type. A thin piece of wood is wrapped around a relatively thick piece and fastened with one copper rivet. The thickness of the bottom may be the drawback. I'm not sure what the minimum thickness of the bottom could be, but if it were wrapped around a thick piece to form it, perhaps a much thinner bottom could be substituted after the side was dried. (I think they have to be wet to bend them.)

[Betsy Yocum]

Wow you guys are great with all these ideas.

Here is what I have so far - I've got my friend to take a 6" overall footprint. So the boxes will be about 5.5" square. The left back corner will have a small square that will be used to house a bushing/rod system. I'll experiment with a brass washer for additional spacing between the trays. The base will be solid walnut - 3/4 thick with "false feet" and I'll be adding some lead weight (I already have some lead from another project.) I plan to cut out a section of the bottom with a dishing bit and then add a cover over the lead weight so it does not show should anyone pick up the piece and turn it over out of morbid couriesty.

The back will be about 5.25" wide and set off to the right so that the box can swing to the left and have a natural stop when it hits the side of the back. The back will be mortise/tenoned into the base and top. The top will be 3/8" thick and have a nice profile around it.

My friend wants solid walnut. I'm trying to convince him that adding a contrasting color - maple, oak or ebony - will add some pizzazzz to the box. Hopefully, he'll go for it - in that case I want to edge the top and base with the contrasting wood and use the same wood as the box pulls. For the keys I want to use the contrasting color in a 3 tier pattern - contrast - walnut - contrast - I think that would really add some pop to it.

I hope to have a pine model by the end of the week or this weekend. Will post pictures - I think this is actually going to work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks again for all your help.

Betsy

[Betsy Yocum]

Well to say this has been a challenge would be the ultimate in understatements. Everything I've tried with different size rods, different bushing systems, different thicknesses of wood (for the weight issue) has all bombed!!!! No matter what I've tried once I think I've got it I put some light weight in the box and just like that - failure!!

Sooo I was talking with my friend tonight and explained what I have done. He is still set solid on the box size - so we are going to try something else. He still wants the pivot type drawers/boxes. But we've decided to try "dust panels" Don't know if this will work or not. But here is the idea -

you would have the base then one box - then a panel 1/8" or so, then another box on up to the final top. The dust panel would have to be inset into a dado on both the back and side piece. I have manage to figure out that you can have two solid sides to the whole piece and still have a square box - you don't have to cut off one corner.

So anyway that's where I'm at. I really thought I was getting close - but any weight at all and the box sags onto the box below it - hence you can't open just one box at a time. I think the concept is a good one - but the boxes have to be smaller than what my friend wants.

I may never get this box made - but I'm learning stuff along the way so it's not a total bust. If I ever get one to be close to what needs to be I'll post pics - but so far all my attempts are not picture worthy.

Thanks for all your help and encouragement.

Betsy

[Dave Richards]

Betsy, I'm sorry you're having so much trouble. I am afraid your dust panel idea might meet the same end. The drawer will sag onto the dust panel and the dust panel will sag onto the drawer below.

Have you tried a bushing at the top and bttom of the drawer? That shouldn't sag if the drawer box is rigid.

[Betsy Yocum]

Betsy, I'm sorry you're having so much trouble. I am afraid your dust panel idea might meet the same end. The drawer will sag onto the dust panel and the dust panel will sag onto the drawer below.

Have you tried a bushing at the top and bttom of the drawer? That shouldn't sag if the drawer box is rigid.

Thanks for the sympathy Dave!!! Yep - I've tried the bushing on top and bottom seperately and together. The box is ridgid - 1/4 material with ply bottom and the corner piece that has the bushing and rod is 1.5" material. I started with an 1/8 rod - definetly to small and have moved up to 1/4" so that should be pretty ridgid as well.

I'm going to try the dust panels but I'm guessing that you will be right. I was really hoping I could talk my friend into a straight drawer box - but he's sold on this idea - and as he's a friend I feel obligated to give it the old college try. If the dust panels don't work - I think it's punt time though!!

Betsy

[Carl Eyman]

What clearance do you have between bushings and rod? I know this is a bear to measure, but I'd look for a fit in which you can feel little or no slop. This may mean finding someone with an expandable reamer to custom fit the bushings. Another thought (expensive) is to use ball bearings that are a press fit on the rod with the outer race epoxied to the box.

[Steve Jenkins]

Betsy, a thought or two on your dustpanel idea. Make the panel flat, not a rail and stile as you would typically see. On the top back corner of the drawer,the corner that will be traveling around the arc not the corner with the post, build it up just enough so you can put a thin piece of uhmw tape that will rub on the dust panel above.The dust panel below should have just enough gap below the drawer to put a piece of uhmw tape either on the bottom of the drawer edge or on the panel itself. These should keep the drawer flat and snug when rotating it although it may sag slightly when opened all the way.

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Betsy,

I have been working on a jewelry box design for my wife, similar to your project, so was watching your design process with interest. I and am sorry to hear about the difficulties, but am very pleased to have been able to learn from your experience rather than figuring it out by experimentation on my own.

I have been approaching the design from a slightly different perspective that may not be quite as elegant, but I think will be much easier to implement, and would meet your client's requirements. I have seen a couple of jewelry boxes like this previously, so can't take credit for the concept. Also, have not started building the box yet, so won't guarantee that I have thought through all the issues.

The case has three vertical components:

1) The back, which is fixed, and attached to the base and the top.

2) The left side,

3) The right side.

The left and right sides are "L" shaped, (or reverse "L" shaped) and wrap around to form the front of the case (one half of the case front is attached to the left side, the other half of the case front is attached to the right side. (Alternatively, the full front could be attached to one side). The case sides are attached to the back with hinges (either piano hinges, or regular hinges)

1/3 of the drawers are attached to the case back, and are fixed, 1/3 of the drawers are permanently attached to the left side, and 1/3 of the drawers are permanently attached to the right side, in an alternating fashion. All of the drawers are the same size, and are full sized. When you open the doors to the case, the drawers attached to each side swing out with that side.

This design has a minor disadvantage in that the drawers are not independent, so when you are getting something from a lower drawer, you have to reach beneath one of the upper drawers, but since there are two open spaces above each drawer when the doors are open, and since the drawers attached to the back are accessable from three sides, and the drawers attached to each side are accessable from two and a half sides, I don't think this is an issue.

Hope this is clear.

Mike

[Carl Eyman]

I think I've got it, Betsy. I just did some work in the shop that seems on right track. First I took a square piece of hardwood 13/16" square, put it in the lathe held in a four jaw chuck with a long 1/4" drill chucked in the tailstock. After predrilling the end with a center drill, I bored as deeply as possible (in this case 6+". I took the square out of the lathe, cut the stock into 1" long pieces, and strung them on a piece of 1/4" cold rolled steel rod. The only problem is they are a little tight - a little hard to turn. I chucked the rod in the drill press and one by one as the rod was turning held the pieces. This friction loosened them up some, but I shall probably have to rub the rod down with fine sandpaper or crocus cloth. I have started gluing 13/16" sides on the blocks in order to judge the sag, but as yet there is NONE. Maybe when I get them freer turning there'll be a little, but not the 3/16" I have between drawers.

Attention Picture Police: My camera is not yet back from repair so cut me some slack. Besides I have a get out of jail free card from Monopoly

Betsy, if you want me to mail you this mock up give me an address by PM or e-mail. I also have several ideas how to drill the holes and have them well located without a 4-jaw chuck on your lathe.

I believe your problem of sagging is solved and on the cheap.

[Betsy Yocum]

Thanks for all your ideas guys. Sorry it's taken so long to get back with you - hectic is the name of my life right now - have not even stepped into my shop this week to make a speck of sawdust !

Michael - sounds like your project is challenging. I printed your suggestion and plan to show it to my friend to see if he would like to explore that type of option.

Steve - I'm afraid I'm going to show my newbie status - I've not heard of uhmw tape. Is that something I can pick up at a woodworking store or where? As to the dust panel - I'm with you on the flat idea!!

Thanks to Carl for sending me a prototype in the mail. I appreciate the help for sure.

I did run across this funky little insert that I have no name for - but it gives me a pretty good grip on the rod - will try it and let you know the outcome.

Hopefully I will be in the shop some this weekend - family willing that is!

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions!

Betsy

[Ron Schweitzer]

Betsy,
You could use brass tubing available at hobby shops, K&S is the brand I have seen. It is thin walled and very precise, the tube with 1/4" ID would be 9/32" OD. You could drill a 9/32" hole in a block of wood and then glue this into a corner or you could just epoxy the tube into the corner.
The tubing is available in 12" and 36" lengths, it can be cut with a small pipe cutter and the ends trued and trimmed to length in a drill press with a file. The ID is about .002" larger then 1/4", a 1" long tube would give very little sag, about .020" or less in a 5" box.
I would use 1/4" drill rod for the shaft, it has a very exact size and a polished finish. You should be able to get it at a machine shop in 36" lengths for a few $, KBC has it for $1.76. It is not hardened yet and can be cut with a hacksaw.
HTH
Ron

[Carl Eyman]

After doing a lot of thinking about Betsy's problem, I decided I wanted to try making a Jewelry box. This one will not satisfy Betsy's customer's requirements, but it does work. Included are in progress pictures. The base shown is just a piece of plywood. I think I'll use a rectangular piece of walnut with a steel plate inset in the bottom side. The four trays and the one top are 5/4 mahogany. I'll finish in a traditional color using grain filler and Fuhr's 355 satin. Notice one of the trays has been routed out. The cavity will be about 7/8" deep and lined with green felt. A piece of 1/4" steel rod is held vertically in the base on the left side of the pictures. It will be epoxied into both the base and the top. Each tray is threaded onto the rod. The fit is loose enough to allow free turning, but it is not sloppy - a running fit- is what I think the machinists call it. The trays will have one or two washers between them made from .0010" shim stock.

I think whether the piece will be attractive or not depends on how good a finish I can get on the mahogany.

Since work is still in progress, all suggestions are welcome.

Can Betsy sue me for stealing her idea?

[Keith Christopher]

Betsy,


I've been thinking about this while I was sick. I think the basic problem is not the drawers themselves but the way they're being attached. The spacer/tube is a good idea, but why not have the rod move and not the box. BElow is a crude MS paint example of what I mean. Let me know if this makes no sense



Keith