Dye Stain Problems

[Keith Gwin]

I have a maple (soft) dresser that has been built for around 3 months and you will see why I am scared to finish it! I have been staining scrap pieces of wood for a while and never can get satisfactory results. I took the top of the dresser and flipped it over and did the following:

Sanded at 80, 120, 180.
Applied Zinsser seal coat using folded cotton cloth.
Applied General Finishes Dye Stain.
See pictures for results.

What I am looking for is the clear spot in the middle as seen in the first picture. Too bad I can't get it but in one spot.

I found that staining without using the seal coat made the finish look like brown spray paint. The seal coat made the wood take the stain more evenly until I tried it over the entire surface. I found that if I apply 2 coats of seal coat the wood will not get near dark enough. I am out of ideas and would appreciate some help.

Thanks,

[Scott Holmes]

Keith,

You skipped a grit when sanding, 120 is going to take a while to remove the scratch pattern from 80 grit.

Maple does not stain well as; you have learned.

A dye would be better. Use an alcohol (DNA) based TransTint dye "medium brown" may be close to what you want. Look at their color chart for other color options. One of the advantages of using dye in DNA is that each coat will make it darker (stains have binders that seal the wood) and if it's too dark you can buff it with DNA and lighten the color.

You are wise to test your entire finishing schedule on scrap first.

[Keith Gwin]

I am using a water based dye stain. Are you talking about the bottles of dye that you mix with alcohol? Also how do I keep the dark patterns out? I hope I can talk my wife out of dark stain and just put a clear finish on it which is what I would rather do anyway.

[Michael Flores]

Hey Kieth, Here's a little trick the pro's use. Dont use shellac first. Take some distilled water and wet the surface down generously. This will fill a lot of the pores up with water so it will take stain more evenly. Once you finish putting the stain, apply your shellac seal coat and finish.

[Jimmy Williams]

I just finished a soft maple desk (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=137795) using a water based dye stain. I sanded to #180 and then put down a thinned layer of the Zinsser Seal Coat (3 parts DNA to 1 part Seal Coat) followed by two coats of the dye stain.

I think the problem you are running into is the shellac is not letting enough of the dye into the wood (the dark areas in the first picture is the dye sitting on top of the shellac and the light areas are where it went into the wood). I ran into that same thing on a few occasions on my desk. You can fix it by applying more dye on top and let it soak in for a few seconds and then wipe it back off. This will remove the first layer and make the color more even.

On a new test piece try the 3:1 mixture and I think you will be pleased.

[Conrad Fiore]

You may have to reduce the General dye, the color may be too intense. You can seal the surface to reduce the color intensity or you can reduce the intensity of the dye and add more layers of dye to get to the color you want.

[Joe Chritz]

I expect that the wipe on sealcoat is a big part of the problem. Areas that get a little heavy don't take the dye well.

Have you tried thinning the dye? How about a heavy sand back after the seal coat?

Normally on maple I either use BLO only or if I want color transtint in water. It raises the grain but gives me more working time. However with DNA cut transtint you have the option to add more easy as well as buff some off until you get the final look you are after.

Maple isn't one of the easy woods to finish by any stretch.

Joe

[Prashun Patel]

Keith-
I'm just a hobbyist, so I defer to the pros, but here's what's worked for me:

Use a dye. I like the Transtint dyes. The 2oz Medium Brown is really versatile and lasts forever. I dilute it in water - not DNA, because it's easier to control. I use a 2% solution in water (distilled), and then sponge it on. You'll have to sponge the bare wood first with clean water, and then defuzz the raised grain (which is the reason people use DNA)..

Spend twice the amt of time you think you should on sanding and prep. Sand every grit between 80 up to 220. A higher grit will slightly impede the grains ability to absorb stain, but will make it more even.

[Keith Gwin]

I tried a few of the suggestions in the replies but still had similar problems. I called General Finishes and they suggested using a pigment stain rather than a dye because of how deep a dye will penetrate. I have attached pictures using the pigment stain. I tried the brown mahogany and the shaker colors.

The first picture is the test board.
The second picture is the end with stain on the wood sanded to 180.
The third is the end with one coat of Shellac 2:1 with the stain applied on top the next day.

This didn't solve the problems but looks better. I have ordered the blotch product that Charles Neil has come out with. I hope this works because I am running out of options. Does everyone agree that these are less than acceptable results? I don't think I am being that picky, am I?

[Prashun Patel]

I called General Finishes and they suggested using a pigment stain rather than a dye because of how deep a dye will penetrate.

I suspect they have experts there, but that argument doesn't make sense to me. You can throttle the darkness of the dye by making a more dilute solution. Dye penetrates the wood fibers, and doesn't sit and lodge in the pores. Bkz of this, dye tends to penetrate more evenly and less 'blotchily'.

Last, after you lay the dye down, you can move it around with a solvent-laden cloth to blend or to lighten.

[Steve Schoene]

First thing is to use a dye, not the General Finishes product labeled a dye stain. It includes dye colorant, but it is pre-mixed with a binder, basically a very light waterborne finish. That makes it behave differently from dye. I'd call it a dye toner not a dye.

The advise from the company to use a pigment stain directly on the wood makes no sense for such hard to stain woods.

Get a real dye. I suggest a POWDERED dye that you mix with water. W.D. Lockwood has a very wide range of colors. (These are also sold by Woodworkers Supply under their Moser house label.) TransFast watersoluble powders also work well.

Dye is best applied to bare wood, though in troublesome cases you can reduce blotching by either applying the dye to wood pre-dampened with distilled water, or which has received a wash coat of shellac--(not full strength Seal Coat, but SC diluted with about an equal part of alcohol). You determine the intensitiy of color by how concentrated you mix the dye.

Dye should be applied VERY wet, essentially flooded on, as long as you don't slosh it about. (A sponge makes a good applicator. Start from the bottom and work up, so any drips land on still wet dye. That allows you to wipe off the drip or run with your sponge with no ill effect. Dye will dry looking very dull and washed out. A topcoat brings it alive. (You can simulate that effect for a short time by wetting with mineral spirits.) You can lighten too dark dye a bit by wiping down with distilled water. You can (almost) remove it by bleaching with chlorine bleach (Chlorox)