Mobile Library - Raffan

[bob svoboda]

'Turning Wood' with Richard Raffan. Originally from John Keaton. Available to first one to PM with address.

Here are the rules:

1. Loans are restricted to Contributors of SMC, and I would expect that policy to be honored by others that may come into possession of these DVDs. If you aren't a Contributor, then pay the $6 and have an opportunity to borrow these DVDs, and others that may be available by other creekers.
2. This DVD will be marked with the owners name. While he does not ever expect them back in his possession, should the interest in borrowing these cease, he would appreciate the individual holding them at the time sending him a PM for his address and returning them.
3. The DVDs should be cared for properly so they can be shared with others.
4. I will mail the DVD or DVDs to any Contributor wanting them for viewing. That person will diligently watch them to the extent they feel it takes to absorb the material, and then the holder shall promplty post a thread similar to this one seeking another interested individual. The person shipping shall bear the cost of shipping each time the DVDs change possession.
5. This arrangement is based solely on the honor system. They have been very helpful to me, and I hope they will help others. But, that can only happen if we have honest participation in this arrangement. If it doesn't work, then it is no great loss to me economically, but it will certainly be a disappointment to me.
6. SMC is not involved in this at all, has no liability, and this entire arrangement is voluntary on my part. I accept the risk of loss of the DVDs, and in no way intend to hold the owners/administrators/moderators of SMC liable in any way in the event of loss.

[bob svoboda]

The Video is spoken for.

[Ernie Nyvall]

I haven't been a contributor since 2007 when my knee got so bad I couldn't stand at my lathe. It's all brand new now and I am slowly getting back into it.

I prefaced with that so you would know why I would just now comment on the Mobile Library. I looked at what history on the discussion I could find, but I may have missed something, and actually hope I did.

The people who make the DVDs and write the books pay good money and spend lots of time doing the work to produce these things. They also have copyrights on them. Does it become a copyright infringement when you have to be a contributor to participate? Money is changing hands and I didn't find where SMC is giving any to the author. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'm not going to say that I have never borrowed a book, because I have for the purpose of seeing if I wanted to purchase it myself. But on a public form where it has the possibility of really cutting in to someone's profit, it just seems wrong to me unless permission was given by the author. There may be an argument that it would better advertise the product, and someone in the borrowing loop may then go purchase one, but it would still seem like the author should be involved to authorize that.

Honesty and honorable are words being used because no one wants their book or DVD stolen, but actually we only own the plastic or paper and ink. We don't own what is on them.

I would hate to see people who have a lot to offer, decide not to make a DVD or write a book because they can't break even on the cost to them.

And now since I wrote this, I need to call a friend and tell him not to send a DVD that I was going to check out. LOL... Dang

It's not my intention to offend anyone, and I am not pointing a finger. It's just my thoughts on the subject.

[Thom Sturgill]

The people who make the DVDs and write the books pay good money and spend lots of time doing the work to produce these things. They also have copyrights on them. Does it become a copyright infringement when you have to be a contributor to participate? Money is changing hands and I didn't find where SMC is giving any to the author.

The only money I see is the stipulation that the borrower pay to ship to the next borrower. Effectively, title is passing with each 'borrower' and the rule of first sale applies. That said, I have a fair start on a library, and I have it because someone 'loaned' me a copy of a video, which I then bought.

[Bill Bolen]

Ernie, seems to me that following the logic you are suggesting then the public Library is illegal? No money is changing hands but several DVD's are being passed around for personal viewing. Is this illegal? Don't know but I think not. No offence intended just a different perspective...Bill..

[Tim Boger]

I haven't been a contributor since 2007 when my knee got so bad I couldn't stand at my lathe. It's all brand new now and I am slowly getting back into it.

I prefaced with that so you would know why I would just now comment on the Mobile Library. I looked at what history on the discussion I could find, but I may have missed something, and actually hope I did.

The people who make the DVDs and write the books pay good money and spend lots of time doing the work to produce these things. They also have copyrights on them. Does it become a copyright infringement when you have to be a contributor to participate? Money is changing hands and I didn't find where SMC is giving any to the author. If I'm wrong, let me know. I'm not going to say that I have never borrowed a book, because I have for the purpose of seeing if I wanted to purchase it myself. But on a public form where it has the possibility of really cutting in to someone's profit, it just seems wrong to me unless permission was given by the author. There may be an argument that it would better advertise the product, and someone in the borrowing loop may then go purchase one, but it would still seem like the author should be involved to authorize that.

Honesty and honorable are words being used because no one wants their book or DVD stolen, but actually we only own the plastic or paper and ink. We don't own what is on them.

I would hate to see people who have a lot to offer, decide not to make a DVD or write a book because they can't break even on the cost to them.

And now since I wrote this, I need to call a friend and tell him not to send a DVD that I was going to check out. LOL... Dang

It's not my intention to offend anyone, and I am not pointing a finger. It's just my thoughts on the subject.

Seems to me one could find legal or moral implications within 'bout any scenario .... would this be any different if woodworking magazines were the medium passed around?

I think it's a great idea.

Tim

[John W Dixon]

I think most woodturning clubs have a library for their members to use and this is often a "selling" point on joining the club. I do not believe there is anything wrong in either case although just my opinion.

John

[Richard Madison]

The crux of Ernie's comments seems to be that one must be an SMC contributor to participate. And/but as John said, one must also be a dues-paying club member to borrow from the club library.

Do companies that rent DVDs (netflicks?) to customers pay a royalty for each rental or simply purchase the DVD?

I lack the resources to purchase the DVDs I would like to see, but if able to borrow and view them might very well recommend their purchase to others. Am a somewhat experienced turner but would still like to see Bill Grumbine's first two.

[Donny Lawson]

I see nothing wrong with paying the shipping cost to send it to another creeker.I would be 100% willing to borrow DVD's and view them and pass them on to a fellow creeker who would like the opportunity to view them also.Plus I think it would be neat to see where in the world your DVD winds up from time to time.Just my 2 cents worth.
Donny

[larry cronkite]

My wife and I are peripherally in the music business and are quite aware of the copyright laws.
It my opinion (fwiw) that it is ok to loan or give away a purchased copyrighted item but it is illegal to make a copy of the original so that there are more copies than were originally produced.

[Thom Sturgill]

My wife and I are peripherally in the music business and are quite aware of the copyright laws.
It my opinion (fwiw) that it is ok to loan or give away a purchased copyrighted item but it is illegal to make a copy of the original so that there are more copies than were originally produced.

And that's the meaning of the word 'copyright' in a nutshell.

<rant on>The RIAA types have been fighting the 'First Sale' doctrine for as long as they have been in existence (libraries have been around a LOT longer). Publishers have tried to put used book stores out of business (I used to be in that business, and no, neither the publisher nor the author gets any money on re-sales). Game publishers have been after used game stores too. In the later case they claim 'license not sale' and that they should 'get a cut' of re-sales. Publishers are doing the same with with e-books - look at the debacle over Amazon removing purchased copies of a book from users Kindles. </rant off>

[larry cronkite]

My wife and I are peripherally in the music business and are quite aware of the copyright laws.
It my opinion (fwiw) that it is ok to loan or give away a purchased copyrighted item but it is illegal to make a copy of the original so that there are more copies than were originally produced.

Just realized I missed something.
It is ok to make a copy for your own use.
Example: You have a record and make an mp3 file to play on your iPhone, etc.

[Ernie Nyvall]

I realize now that I brought this up on the wrong thread, so I apologize to the moderator for that. I haven't kept up, so I don't know who that is.

No need for a rant Thom. I posed it as a question of legality, not as a fact. Oh, and there is other money than shipping cost involved. The fact that you have to be a contributor makes it so. Now I don't happen to believe that contributors are more trustworthy as a whole than just members as has been insinuated, but that's just me. So anyway, I gotcha that it is legal, but I hope that if there were members here who had produced one of the DVDs that is being passed around, that they made special contact for their ideas on the library. It would have been nice, and I hope they did.

Sorry again for bringing this up on the wrong thread, but I wanted to clear that up, and I will quit posting to it.

[John Keeton]

I have hesitated to get into this thread, and it seems to have worked its way to a conclusion. I hope I do not stir additional debate, but let me just add this thought - both for Ernie, and others that may view this thread.

When I first suggested the idea of a mobile library, there were difficulties and concerns with having it organized by SMC. For that reason, I thought it best to simply offer the videos for loan to others. My desire was to stir interest in woodturning, and to assist those that might have an interest in gaining more knowledge, but would not necessarily purchase a DVD.

I started out with SMC as a flatworker, before getting sucked over into the round side!! I enjoy SMC, and I want it to survive financially as I feel it has much to offer for woodworkers generally, and woodturners specifically. That is the reason for limiting the loan of my DVDs to contributors only.

This situation is nothing more than me, individually, deciding to whom I want to loan my DVDs. I, individually, only want to loan them to contributors. It has nothing to do with trustworthiness. There are many on SMC with whom I have formed a friendship, and not all of them are contributors.

I have the freedom to make that choice among my "reality" friends, as well as my "cyber" friends. I choose to whom I will loan or give things, and upon what terms. I am doing the same here. Should someone else want to loan their DVDs, and not limit that loan to contributors, then that is their choice. That decision is being made on an individual basis, not by SMC.

So, here is where we are. So long as the DVDs that were, and still are, owned by me are circulated, then I want them loaned only to contributors. Obviously, I have to rely on the honor system and hope that others in the "chain" honor my wishes. The world will not end if that doesn't happen.

Ernie, I do not take your comments as a rant, nor am I offended - though I wasn't mentioned in your comments. It is just that I fail to see any of the reasoning in the arguments about the legal impact of this. There is none. Just consider all the individuals that have given or loaned books, records, tapes, DVDs, etc. to their friends. Those items are distinguished from licensed software that is licensed for a limited number of uses, and there is no violation of any laws of which I am aware.

Let's all just let this thread fade into obscurity!

[Thom Sturgill]

No need for a rant Thom. <snip>
Sorry again for bringing this up on the wrong thread, but I wanted to clear that up, and I will quit posting to it.

Ernie, the 'Rant' was not at you but at the whole 'IP' movement conflating copyright, pattent and trade secret and trying to claim all of the 'rights' (plus whatever else they can grab) at the cost of the actual 'right givers' - the people. And I'll stop there before I get into rant mode again

While this was not the original thread on the library and it *should* have been its own thread, it brought out issues that needed to be aired. I realized after I posted that you might have been referring to membership, but that is a common item with clubs and I guess we treat this as an on-line club. I think it was not a disparagement of non-contributors, but rather a recognition of a little bit of commitment by contributing members to make this a good and a valuable site.

However, that 'requirement' was not made by Sawmill Creek, but rather by the member that started this with a personal donation. Its actually up to each 'borrower' to decide who he sends the disk to.