Advice for new toyls needed

[Mark Stutz]

Several years ago I read an article in FWW about making coopered doors for a cabinet. This was very intriguing, and I filed the idea away for future reference. I am hoping to do a small version of a humped back chest as a keepsake box. It seems there are three good ways to do the curved top.

!. Use a bending form and make bent wood laminations, David Marks' style. The drawback is...no new toyls needed!

2.Build a form and use vacuum veneering with bending plywood. This would allow experimenting with new techniques, and get some new stuff, but this doesn't really appeal to me.

3.Cooper the top. This is what I would like to do, as eventually that curved front cabinet is beckoning. Now...the question. What is the best way to fair the curves. It seems the outside could probably be done with a block plane,rasp, and card scraper, but the inside is another matter. I have never used a spokeshave, and don't own one, but this seems like the tool of choice, at least for the inside, concave face.

What is your recomendation for a spokeshave or two? or any other suggestion? Thanks!

Mark, on an increasingly slippery slope!

[Tom LaRussa]

Several years ago I read an article in FWW about making coopered doors for a cabinet. This was very intriguing, and I filed the idea away for future reference. I am hoping to do a small version of a humped back chest as a keepsake box.

3.Cooper the top. This is what I would like to do, as eventually that curved front cabinet is beckoning. Now...the question. What is the best way to fair the curves. It seems the outside could probably be done with a block plane,rasp, and card scraper, but the inside is another matter. I have never used a spokeshave, and don't own one, but this seems like the tool of choice, at least for the inside, concave face.

Mark,

It is now officially time for you to read Krenov -- specifically, The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

Welcome to the really steep part of the slope...

BTW, he uses curved bottomed planes of his own construction.

[Erin Raasch]

I think what you might be looking for is a scorp . . .

Check this out

I don't know what dimensions you have in mind for your chest; that will of course have some bearing on what tool you're going to need. If you're looking at something smaller, then you might want to try something like this.

Disclaimer: I haven't actually used either one, but the question had come up somewhere awhile back about what tool to use for scooping out the seat of a chair, and it turned out it was a scorp.

Erin

[Bob Smalser]

One problem with coopered doors is getting the glue joints as tight and well-glued as you easily do with conventional flat panels.

Steambending likes to move around some with humidity changes unless you lock it in securely....I use it routinely in boats, but would be reluctant in a door. Can't be done across the grain anyway in hardwood....when done in more-flexible softwood boat planking, bending across the grain is called "whomping" the plank to get it to fit a curved frame with minimal backing out.

I'm a fan of the table saw birdsmouth spar as it is very strong and can be adapted to any crossgrain curve you like.



Fairing the crossgrain curves is done with a simple smoothing plane on the convex side and a scorp followed by a convex spoke shave on the inside. The best spoke shave ever made for this was the cast-iron Snell Atherton, which came in different sizes...a #5 off of Ebay in the 25-dollar range would be a good place to begin.

I also make spar planes for those convex surfaces, but that'd be a lotta trouble for just one or two sets of doors:

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultim...c;f=1;t=010004

[Mark Singer]

On the inside of coopered doors you can use a Stanley 113 Circular plane or Compass plane...run it on a skew and adjust the radius to the skew. Then a 5" ROS with a soft pad. Doors of this kind need Brusso pin hinges and they need to be mortised before the carcass is assembled. Tom is right,Krenov is a must for this type of work."Impractical Cabinet Maker" , "Woorker in Wood", and many others..

[Bob Smalser]

On the inside of coopered doors you can use a Stanley 113 Circular plane or Compass plane...run it on a skew and adjust the radius to the skew. Then a 5" ROS with a soft pad. Doors of this kind need Brusso pin hinges and they need to be mortised before the carcass is assembled. Tom is right,Krenov is a must for this type of work."Impractical Cabinet Maker" , "Woorker in Wood", and many others..

Sorry Mark. Picture the average coopered door. My #113 won't work well at all across the grain in hardwood.

But the #113 is a handy tool. My advice is to take Blood and Gore and other well-meaning tool collectors...who hate them but also probably never actually met anybody who derived the bulk of their living from woodworking hand tools, let alone did it themselves....with a big, big grain of salt.

The #113 and its counterparts were designed for one function....to plane edge grain on curved rails, ledger boards, carlins and the like. They do that quite well if you add a set screw to lock down the front knob shaft. For any other purpose....hollowing out chair seats comes to mind...they don't work well because they weren't designed to do it.

[Mark Stutz]

Thanks to all!

Tom,
I have added that to my Amazon wish list for Christmas! Hopefully it's illustrated...I learn much better visually.

Erin,
I knew about scorps from reading, but had no idea they came in small sizes. What I have in mind is on a small scale. How does one go about sharpening something like that?

Bob,
I love the birdsmouth joint! I have seen specialty router bits to do this but seemed like too much trouble to set up, costly, etc. Is there a formula to determine the length of each piece depending on the radius of the circle? There are lots of Stanley shaves on e-bay but only one Snell Atherton...a#3. Does the curve of the shave have to match the radius of the surface?

Mark and Bob,
I had thought about a compass plane (chance for a new tool! ) but was concerned about the cross grain.

Hopefully this weekend I can start playing around with this joint in some poplar for practice.

Mark

[Dave Anderson NH]

Hi Mark-



I question the use of a scorp for the interior of the door. While fine for the rough work, it will leave a rough surface which needs to be cleaned up with a compass plane and a travisher or a spokeshave. Lee Valley makes a very nice curved bottom spokeshave and both chairmakers travishers and compass planes are available from Jim White at Crown Plane in Portland Maine. I own two of their compass planes and one of the travishers and have been well satisfied. The normal sequence of use would be: scorp, compass plane, and finally either travisher or spokeshave. A curved scraper would be used for final cleanup and fairing of curves. Se, now you have opportunities for a bunch of new tools.

[Bob Smalser]

You fellas are gonna have to post some pics for me to see you use a compass plane to a neat result across the grain.

[Mark Singer]

Bob, is correct,the compass plane is intended for working with the grain....it will tear out but blend the staves...then the ROS starting with rough grit...60 and finer eventually to 400 leaves a nice surface. I belive Krenov does not use a compass plane for this, he has a plane contoured to the radius of the coopered door in its width, or close to the same curve and pushes it with the grain in the direction of the lenth of the door.There is a picture of it in "The Fine Art of Cabinet Making " page 124. A scorp would be rough and a spokeshave is ackward since it is difficult to hold and get clearance for your hands with the blade touching the work. The Compass plane works nicley on "Bow fronts" and round tables. Of course because you are crossing the grain since it is a curve , you need to change direction to minimize planing against the grain. I like to make a plywood template of the curve to use as a reference...it is easy to distort the curve with either hand or power tools. You can contour the staves with a "soft" disc on a Makita 4" grinder or with a belt sander , then moving to a ROS sander. I think it is difficult to achieve a fine surface without sanding. Unless you have a custom plane contoured to rhe curve over the width of the plane, like Krenov.

[Tom LaRussa]

I had thought about a compass plane (chance for a new tool! ) but was concerned about the cross grain.

Mark,

I think a compass plane is the wrong solution.

As Mark Singer pointed out, Krenov uses a plane with a radiused bottom. The bottom is convex so that it makes a concave cut -- with the grain, not across it. I have four of this type that I bought from a fellow in England for about $15 each with shipping.

Here are a couple pics. The first is one that is currently on sale on eBay, the second is my four little beauties.

[Leif Hanson]

Woodsmith magazine does a coopered door in their latest issue you might be interested in. It's not highly radiused, but uses an interesting technique for construction.

For smoothing the interior of the curve - if it's not too big of a piece a stiff rounded scraper will work.

As Bob suggests, they do make a convex spokeshave, too, they are good shallow radiuses. If the curve of the panel is shallow enough that the handles won't get in the way, it's a great solution.

If there is a lot of curve to the top (I'm thinking like treasure chest, here) and it's pretty large, then I like Tom's solution of convex planes. If you can't find a decent old one to buy, they are pretty simple to make.

[Mark Stutz]

Tom,
That is what I had envisioned, but didn't know something like that existed, or what to call it! Thanks.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

David Charlesworth has an article in volume two of his "Furniture-Making Techniques" called "From a jack to a king". He goes through the process of making a giant hollowing plane for coopered doors from an old wooden jack plane. The end result looks very similiar the pictures that Tom LaRussa posted.

Wendell

[Bob Smalser]

Boatbuilders call them "backing out planes"....and if you can't find one, they are simple enough to make. Just reverse the pattern I used for a spar plane in that article.

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