Joinery Questions

[Matt Sauber]

So this is my first woodworking project ever and I have a few joinery questions. The joints I'm scratching my head on are in the image below A, B, and C. I am using only hand tools so please keep that in mind.

Joint A: I'm thinking some kind of "side mortise" or sliding dovetail here a la the other attached images. Suggstions?

Joint B: How to attach the top? I'm thinking some pocket screws...

Joint C: How do I attach those side things? I'm at a loss here.

Thanks for the help.

[harry strasil]

The best way to attach table tops is by using table top fasteners either metal ones from a woodworkers supply or by making your own out of scrap wood.

[john brenton]

I'm no master, but if it were me (and I've built something similar that came out half as nice as I had planned) I would mortise the legs into the top, the bottom stretchers into the legs, dowel in the side details, and use those little cabinet brackets to hold up the middle shelf. Nobody's going to see the underside of the piece anyways.

[Frank Drew]

Mortising the legs into the top could be problematic with a top made from solid; cross grain expansion could either pop the rail/leg joints loose, or crack the top if it can't expand or contract. I'd go with Harry's suggestion of table top fasteners of some kind.

For consistency of appearance and added strength, I'd probably use rails under both shelves (mortising the rails into the legs), and then I think I'd fit the shelves to notch around the legs with a bit of room (a gap) for expansion. You could attach the shelves with screws from underneath the rails, keeping in mind cross grain movement (loose slot for one or more of the screws).

For shelves without rails underneath, I like the middle illustration for notching shelves into legs, but I'd probably let the full thickness of the shelf into the legs enough so that any movement could occur without revealing an opening.

[Richard Magbanua]

Using "buttons" as Harry suggested is the traditional method. Nothing wrong with that at all. It is used because you must allow the top to expand and contract with changes in humidity. Otherwise, since there would be a crossgrain situation in the top and apron, attaching them would likely lead to a split. Mortising the top on to the legs might result in the same given the same apron design. The structural stability comes from well assembled apron/legs. You could use pocket screws as well. Per the instructions, just back them out a bit for the same reason.
You could probably use the dovetails for the shelf into the legs or just use a stopped dado and then reinforce with nails from underneath. The legs may flex enough for the shelf to expand/contract.
As far as the decorative support, it may be fine to glue it to the leg as is. I'm not sure about attaching it to the top, again because of wood movement. You could drive in a brad nail through it into the bottom of the top for extra support. Nails tend to bend with movement unlike screws or glue.
Just my $0.02!

[Matt Sauber]

The best way to attach table tops is by using table top fasteners either metal ones from a woodworkers supply or by making your own out of scrap wood.

So something like the attached image?

...use those little cabinet brackets to hold up the middle shelf. Nobody's going to see the underside of the piece anyways.

I must say that even though nobody will see it - I'll know its there and I would like some kind of "real" joint.

For shelves without rails underneath, I like the middle illustration for notching shelves into legs, but I'd probably let the full thickness of the shelf into the legs enough so that any movement could occur without revealing an opening.

Interesting suggestion about full thickness. Would this large of a notch in the leg compromise structural integrity?

[James Scheffler]

So this is my first woodworking project ever and I have a few joinery questions. The joints I'm scratching my head on are in the image below A, B, and C. I am using only hand tools so please keep that in mind.

Joint A: I'm thinking some kind of "side mortise" or sliding dovetail here a la the other attached images. Suggstions?

Joint B: How to attach the top? I'm thinking some pocket screws...

Joint C: How do I attach those side things? I'm at a loss here.

Thanks for the help.

These are my votes:

Joint A: I like your middle picture. The dovetail seems more complicated than it's worth.

Joint B: I agree with Harry's assessment. Usually you would screw the fasteners to the underside of the top. They are generally S- or L-shaped, with one leg fitting into a slot on the side.

Joint C: These don't really need any joinery, as it is just a long grain to long grain joint. You can get away with glue only, but it couldn't hurt to use a couple dowels just so it aligns correctly when you glue it. Those could be a little difficult to clamp while you're trying to keep them properly aligned.

Jim S.

[Frank Drew]

Matt,

You don't need to let the shelves in very deeply; a quarter inch or so would be sufficient. And, yes, to your question about the top fasteners you show, and, IMO, you could get away with putting them only on the end grain portions of a small top, such as you'd have on an end table.

[john brenton]

I think I know what you are going for and you probably aren't digging the fastener suggestions. I don't like screws or metal fasteners either. It looks like you want a shaker style thing complete with the traditional joinery.

Maybe visit a shaker or Amish furniture site and see what details they give?

So something like the attached image?



I must say that even though nobody will see it - I'll know its there and I would like some kind of "real" joint.



Interesting suggestion about full thickness. Would this large of a notch in the leg compromise structural integrity?

[Jon van der Linden]

You're creating a tremendous problem at joint "A." The shelf, if made of solid wood will almost certainly split. This is because the rails above and below mean that you will be mixing grain directions. I would use the same method to attach the lower and middle shelves. How thick the pieces should be is an aesthetic question that you will have to determine for yourself. Fasten the shelves to the rails the same way you fasten the top.

As for the brackets, I would probably use dowels or a shallow groove with a floating tongue... if I was worried that it might get knocked around. Otherwise I'd just glue it. It doesn't have any structural function. I've seen pieces like that nailed on even in older work, but I've never been happy with that.

[Matt Sauber]

I see your point on the middle shelf. My inspiration came from a Stickley piece (1st attached image). What would Stickley do here?

Could I glue the front two corners of the shelf in a notch and leave the back floating in a notch?

Or, if I used sliding dovetails that were oriented front-to-back (grain width) and didn't use glue, that would solve the movement issue correct? (2nd attached image) The dovetails would slide in and out with the seasonal movement, right?

[harry strasil]

In the Stickley Photo, the middle and bottom shelves do not come out to the edge of the legs if you noticed.

An easy remedy for them is to rebate the shelves into the front exposed legs and glue them in place. Rebate the back the same as the front but, with a shorter stopped mortise for expansion so all the expansion will happen on the back loose side, but yet will not show any gap when it moves. Same thing with the bottom shelf that is setting on stretchers.

[Darius Ferlas]

For tabletop to base I'd use blind sliding dovetail.
For the shelves I use pretty much the same technique as you propose.

[Greg Wease]

From the number of posts you seem to have lots of options! Here's another one:

Instead of four stretchers on the bottom shelf, run two side to side. Then add two stretchers front to back for the center shelf. The shelves can either sit on top of these or be attached with through tenons. I think Stickley would approve.

The wings or supports on the top can be glued directly per earlier replies. To keep them from shifting when clamped, use blind nails. Hammer a couple of brads into a wing and cut them off leaving ~1/16". Tap them in place when gluing and they won't move.

If you attach the top with pocket screws, drill clearance holes in the aprons (increase the 1/8" part of the stepped hole) so the screws can bend a bit when the top expands and contracts

Maybe you can try several options and report which works best!