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Thread: Pinnacle vs. Universal

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Posts
    3,922
    All lasers in the same price/power/speed class do the same thing , some have a few bells and whistles but essentially ALL can accomplish the same type of work at the same speed.

    In terms of buying a laser , the number one thing to look for is support and a no quibble warrantee (especially on the source)The mercury is an older generation model, It works real well and is pretty reliable. We had 2 and traded up to 3 x Explorers.

    In the laser world , time is money and the Explorer's are blindingly fast , they will allow you to double your output over a Mercury. The small premium you pay over the Mercury is totally outweighed by this. I see there is a special at www.laserprousa.com on 30 watt explorers , $17.999.00 , that looks like a GREAT price for the machine. Its a ton less than I paid in South Africa.
    To Qualify my post , I'm not a salesperson , but a heavy duty user and it makes no difference what machine you get to me so take what I say in that light
    You will be hard pressed to get objective views from salespeople or for them to even reveal the "issues" of their machines , and beleive me , there are issues associated with all these lasers, no matter who makes them (and the same holds true for other machines in the sign trade)
    We apply a 1/2 x 2 rule when purchasing anything , 1/2 the advertised performance claims and double the claimed running costs etc and if it still makes financial sense , go for it.
    In general , tubes are either sourced via Synrad or Coherent (usa made) , some of the GCC machines use a Rofin Sinar tube but only the high powered models.
    The Mercury uses a Synrad source , and we found these to be a little flaky and had a few replaced when they blew RF boards but that was early on.
    The Explorer uses a Coherent Deos source and we have found the beam quality on these to be a lot better. Early explorers had a lot of problems (underated power supply , cooling problems in extremely hot environments and cleaning the collimation lens was very difficult - some of the coherent sources failed to to QC problems) but these have been sorted out. I'm in South Africa and even here , the dealer sorted out ALL issues in a day or so , we were never down for longer then 24 hrs. I lose around $1200 a day or more not having an operational laser so for me this level of service is VITAL!!!!!
    Speed with good quality engraving and power are the other 2 areas that give you the best bang for the buck. Upgradebility is a red herring of sorts , going for more power wont necessarily give you faster turnarounds. Most stuff will engrave at far less than 100% power even with a 25 w machine , so if you are NOT using 100% power , you would use 100% speed. Its only on heavy cutting applications where more power will allow a faster processing time. If you do want to upgrade an existing machine to give more productivity , one would really have to upgrade both the source and install a twin head , which of course will 1/2 your max size of engraving. Upgrading to a better or inherently faster machine with more power is a far more viable option.

    The laser you buy depends on your applications , the money is to be made in actually fabricating stuff or doing speciality work , merely engraving gifts etc doesn't give you a great return on investment. The laser should be working 8 hours a day and needs to have the "balls" and reliability to do so. If you intend to do a lot of cutting , power is everything.

    Lasers are relatively high maintenance machines , careful cleaning of the optics , mirrors and motion system is vital for consistent usage , power fluctuates when optics are dirty and you have to fiddle with settings to get the same effect , thus easy and quick access to ALL the optics is vital , the more the laser "protects" the optics and motion system , the better.

    DO NOT buy a laser that uses stepper motors without a closed loop positioning system. Stepper motors can lose steps and cannot sense where they did so , once it loses a step , all engraving is out of register.

    Beam quality is also an issue , even tho one laser might be rated the same as another wattage wise , one might be a LOT quicker and better due to better beam quality , especially in cutting. Power density and spot size go hand in hand and the optic system determines this. There are other factors in terms of beam quality too , but good optics and stable mirror platforms are a must. The beam is aligned in 3d space in lasers , each mirror can be adjusted in 3 planes and the longer the path of the beam from the source , generally , the better the beam quality. This is a double edged sword as the longer the beam path , the more fiddly alignment becomes and small changes can decrease power substantially. Taking lenses and mirrors out continually can easily shift alignment , thus the more solid and rigid the optic mounting system is , the better.Motion systems generally all work well and most seem to be reliable.
    Be careful about being swayed by bells and whistles , a lot of the touted stuff is really of no effect or is relatively unused. We have never used 3d engraving in any paying job (have fiddled) , neither have we used stamp making in anything but for own internal useage (its smelly , messy and one offs are not profitable in terms of time and setup and multiple stamps can be made far easier and cheper with polymer systems)
    The pass thru features of the mercury and explorer have been useful once or twice , but are hardly a deal breaker. Its dangerous to use an open laser , there is no fume eaxtraction and you have to defeat the safety interlock)
    We do use the Rotary attachment a little , but its also not an essential unless you planning to do a lot of glass , and lasering on glass is not the same as blasting , the effects are rough. The GCC rotary attachment is disgusting (as is its manual) and need modifications to work really well. Its VERY difficult to centre stuff on it.
    Even massive table sizes are somewhat inconsequantial , the bigger the table , the more precise alignment has to be otherwise you start getting power drops at various points of the table , worse at the lower right. 99% of our jobs dont require the 1m x 500mm table size of the explorer.
    Cutting tables are essentials , we either use the supplied one or just put blocks of pex on the table to support stuff (using an anodised ally sheet beleow to protect the table , we also are making a pin rest type table.)
    What you really want to do to in making your choice is see the lasers in action , see how easy it is to accomplish a sort of task you would want to do and check quality. DO NOT be swayed by canned tests , use your own graphics and material etc .
    You want to see the laser cut a series of circles and check the very small ones are indeed circles and not elipses , you want to see the laser cut a block of 8mm pex or so and check that the sides are straight and nicely polished. You want to laser a raster grid over the FULL extent of the table and see the grid is truly vertical and horizontal and has crisp edges and is the same depth over the table and that no lines look shattered or out of register. You want to do the same thing with vector lines. You want to engrave very small text , like 1mm (or less) at various speeds , especially top speed and look a the text quality. Get a magnifying glass and loup to examine this. You also want to see how well the machine integrates with the design package you use (most ppl use Corel)
    You also need to time the various machines , so you need lets say an a4 image and ask the various vendors to laser it into acrylic , make sure they all use the same resolution and get "real" times
    Advertised speed claims are bull as they don't reflect true speed , the laser head has to accellerate and deccelerate and albeit at top speed it might be real fast , it might take some time to get there. Apart from that , you want to cut a few squares and make sure they are the same size left to right and top to bottom.
    Tube replacement is a snap , we never did an alignment when replacing one ........BE VERY CAREFUL about tube warrantees , make sure there is a no quible time based warrantee , NOT time based on laser hours etc , but time based on time. IE 3 years is 3 years despite the usage of the machine.
    Air assist is a must and the Explorer has a very good system whereby you can swivel the air jet to take into account different lenses etc , the air must go where needed. We did not like the Mercurys Air assist as it required very serious filters in line with the air to stop oil and moisture as it pressurises the chamber where the lens is and air without filtering condesned oil and water on the lens and contaminated it and led to its damage.
    An efficient extraction system is a must too , apart from the extraction fans (which you can get easily and fairly cheaply) the machines extraction path from the bed is important. It must evacuate smoke , dust etc away from the beam path and must do so quickly.
    We have been very happy with the GCC drivers for our machines and they allow us a lot of flexibility for positioning , we can engrave from a centre , reset home positions , manually position etc.
    They have lots of features and both the drivers and firmware of the machine are easily upgradeable and GCC do a fair amount of development and often release upgrades.
    Be aware that the Explorer will only run on XP - but then if you are buying an expensive laser , a decent upgrade to your home puter or a decent puter is a must.
    Positioning is ALSO an issue , as the laser uses a visible diode to show where the beam will be. This HAS to be perfectly aligned to the beam itself ALL ACROSS the table. Its not part of the laser beam itself and requires a seperate alignment. Auto focus is also a must and it must be accurate , we found the Mercury and explorer AF to be pretty good.
    The major issues we had with our mecurys were the sources (not GCC's fault) and the alignment. I always thought the mercury and the explorers mirror housings to be a weak point , they could be made sturdier. we have replaced a couple of X motors on both machines , which is no big deal , the explorers X motor failed due to us not lubing the X bearing rail , there was no instruction to do so and the bearing ran dry.
    If you want to make money from day 1 , you need a little training , make sure the supplier is conversant with and supports the software you want to use , make sure they will install the laser and train the operator to a competent level.

    There is another aspect to all this , and that is the business plan , DO NOT buy on the hope you will do well , do your homework. Who else has lasers in your area , what do they charge , is there custom in the area , what would YOUR competitive advantages be over other ppl in your area. Do you have working capital , are you going to set up a home office , how much money are you going to devote for marketing , do you have a marketing plan , do you have a direction you wish to go , are you going to hire a helper, what financing options are avialable , have you projected income , how are you going to price , do you have engraving experience , are you familiar with different materials , do you have suppliers lined up and so forth..
    Creativity and thinking out the box is the way to make money on a laser , they are absolutely amazing tools!!!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    New Braunfels,texas USA
    Posts
    40
    I have just upgraded my system from a 25 watt Epilog Mini 18 to a 60 watt Legend 24EX machine (got it today) and will just drop in some personal comments for what they are worth.
    I have had my 25 watt system for about 8 months and have found that the possibilities are totally mind-boggleing, and have used the 25 watt as a fairly reasonable way to get up on my learning curve.
    I am fortunate to be close enough to major distributors of the 3 major players in this size range, to have personally visited them, and have seen, hands-on, the dog and pony shows of all three brands.
    GCC is sold by numerous people, and under numerous different names or organizations, which try to say they are "the best laser system in the world" if they are sold under one name. Under another name they say that a 12 watt system is powerful enough to do everything that you will want to do, and will make you rich and famous. The ability to easily pass large items through the laser may be its largest advantage for maximum flexibility, however the M series machines are very slow at 42 IPM maximum raster engraving speed. Their new Explorer series improves this to 80 IPM, but at a far higher cost.
    Universal has an excellent machine in their higher end machines. I have not fully explored all of their features and benefits, but they are again, a high priced machine to get these speeds and powers. I don't feel that their smaller machines have the speed or quality, or will have the long term durability that a small Epilog system has. This is only my personal opinion, based on many years in a management manufacturing environment.
    For most beginning users, my personal opinion is that an Epilog Mini machine is hands down the most feature packed machine on the market. As it comes out of the box, it is ready to work, and installs as easily as a dot matrix printer. At $10,000 for a 12 x 18 25 watt machine, you need buy nothing else except a $150-$200 dust collection system, and an inexpensive air compressor (only 30 PSI is required for the air assist) to begin making parts. If you later want to purchase the $1200 rotary attachment, it just plugs in and runs. It does however have a learning curve to get the best results with it. If your budget can stand it I would suggest you buy NO LESS than a 35 watt system to begin with, and a 45 watt will do most jobs well. They have recently introduced a new 12 x 24 table size in the Mini series.
    The upgrades if you buy a 25 watt system and try to upgrade later, are not economically feasible, and will lead to weeping and gnashing of teeth over not puchasing enough power initially.
    The 24EX and even larger 32EX systems can be had up to 120 watts and run at a maximum engraving speed of 120 IPM. The difference in throughput is amazing due to this higher speed. Again, this speed and power comes at a significant cost.
    I may sound like an Epilog employee or salesman, which I am not, but I have voted with a very substantial amount of cash dollars from my own pocket, and feel that I have done my homework.
    The very, very, very most important thing to remember always, and make sure you never forget; is that it is not the power or speed of the machine which will make you a sucessful business owner, it is your MARKETING ability.
    Everything else is incidental.
    Sorry to be so long-winded, but hope this may help someone down this very interesting path. This site is one of the best sources of information out there, but before you buy, try to go to some of the many seminars out there and learn everything you can about CorelDraw, as it is your most important tool.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,125
    This is a quote that I believe in.

    THERE IS NOTHING IN THE WORLD THAT SOME MAN CANNOT
    MAKE A LITTLE WORSE AND SELL A LITTLE CHEAPER. AND
    HE WHO CONSIDERS PRICE ONLY IS THAT MAN’S LAWFUL PREY.
    IT IS UNWISE TO PAY TOO MUCH, BUT IT IS WORSE TO PAY
    TOO LITTLE. WHEN YOU PAY TOO MUCH, YOU LOSE A LITTLE
    MONEY - THAT IS ALL. WHEN YOU PAY TO LITTLE YOU SOMETIMES
    LOSE EVERYTHING BECAUSE THE THING YOU BOUGHT WAS
    INCAPABLE OF DOING THE THING IT WAS BOUGHT TO DO...
    IF YOU DEAL WITH THE LOWEST BIDDER, IT IS WELL TO ADD
    SOMETHING FOR THE RISK YOU RUN, AND IF YOU DO THAT YOU
    WILL HAVE ENOUGH TO PAY FOR SOMETHING BETTER.
    THE COMMON LAW OF BUSINESS PROHIBITS PAYING A LITTLE
    AND GETTING A LOT. IT CANNOT BE DONE.

    This applies to laser equipment as well, You will get what you pay for.

  4. #19
    hi my name is Josh
    and i have a Engraving buisness ihave been in buisness for about 6 months and i admit i still dont really know all that much about lasers as some of these pros do but i will tell you that i ahve a universal X2660 with a 18X32 engraving feild. but i am not very happy with it. my sales rep said he would be the best and give me as much attention as i wanted. no i know that isnt a problem with the machine but i will forwarn you that you should make SURE your sales rep isnt there justto make another buck. i wish i would have gone with the laserpro because for one it is a much cheaper machine and two i think it can do everything my expensive universal can do if not more. i hope this helps and email me if i can be of any more help.

    thanks
    josh

    speed11816@yahoo.com
    I'd Rather be Engraving!!
    Josh Kotval
    Blue Ridge Lasercraft
    Lynchburg, VA
    "Quality isn't expensive Its priceless"

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,125
    Dave,

    The most Important issue you will have to deal with is who and where the person is that you will be dealing with. Regarding training, support, and service.

    You absolutely need to get demonstrations with the equipment. In my opinion this is critical. Then compare the quality from each system. GET THINGS IN WRITING

    Then compare system to system on these forums you may not get the entire picture. You have got to see the systems operate and know the people or Reps you will be dealing with from the day you purchase until the day you leave this is important!!!.

    You should also find out how much replacement parts will cost you when they need to be replaced. (Laser Tubes, Motion system parts,etc.) Get this in writing.

    If they don't want to put these things in writing then it should help you to decide.

    I will tell you that we operate a sales and service office for the Universal systems and I can honestly say that they are great systems.

    The other systems that are mentioned are good as well this is why it is important to get DEMOS from them all then decide.

    Good luck with your decision

  6. Hello, I am looking at purchasing a laser engraver, and
    I have a question on the Pinnacle M-Series,
    I think I have read This is the same as the LaserPro Mercury series?
    Pinnacle has 25 watt & laserpro has a 30 watt unit. So I am not sure how to compare them, and I'm not sure what the price differential is.
    but which one is a better unit? and if they are the same who has better service?

    Thank you.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Posts
    3,922
    Not to rain on anyone's parade here , but you should have a look at the Explorer as well , it's almost 2x the speed of the Mercury and also has a larger table size , we upgraded our 3 machines from the Mercury to the Explorer and almost doubled our output.(there is a new machine out called the Spirit which seems to be the direct mercury replacement - as always , a new machine might be fraught with niggles as were our explorers but these were sorted out quite rapidly by the mnfgr). In the laser world a speed increase is WELL worth while , and the explorer engraves at the same if not better quality than the mercurys almost like getting an extra machine . Always get the most power you can afford. Watts arent always watts , it's power density that counts , IE a 50w machine that concentrates its energy into double the area a 25w machine does is sort of equivalent to the 25 watter. We found that 30 watts in the explorer was more than a 5w incease over a 25w mercury. The mercury uses a synrad source and the explorer a Coherent deos , we find the coherents beam quality to be better. Your mileage may vary (YMMV)

  8. #23
    just to clear up a something

    Mercury lasers use both synrad and deos tubes, 12-30 use synrad, 35 and up use Coherent deos air cooled and 100w deos is water cooled
    Explorer laser use Coherent Deos tubes and 100w is water cooled

    another thing to think about, it is better to use anything over 50W with
    220v-AC

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    1,125
    Josh,

    If there are some problems with your local Rep please do not hesitate to contact the Apps lab at Universal (1-800-859-7033) You can talk with anyone there to disscuss your applications, comments, or problems. Universal wants to help so please take advantage of them.

    I would also like to offer any help that I can as well. The reps in your area are usually very responsive we will try to find out what happened.

  10. #25
    thank you for offering to help.

    i guess i got a little carried away and i talked with my rep this morning and got things cleared up i think.
    so going back to the original comment whatever you decide that will work for you will be fine. i just tried to help.

    im sorry to anyone i offended.
    I'd Rather be Engraving!!
    Josh Kotval
    Blue Ridge Lasercraft
    Lynchburg, VA
    "Quality isn't expensive Its priceless"

  11. Pinnacle VS Universal

    Hi All,

    New member here. I am considering a different brand of laser. I'm on my 2nd Universal system. Was actually one of the very first people to buy their first ULS 25 eons ago and now have the PS25.
    I've been looking in to other brands partially because the support has gone down at Universal since George Wendell left, but also for cost.

    I am considering the Pinnacle but am concerned about Corel Draw easily being used with this equipment. I work with my current cut files and don't want to have to change a thing to get up and running with new equipment. (All line art).

    Who here can give me an opinion about it and who might be using it currently?
    I am running Corel 10 at the moment.
    Personally, I don't want the learning curve of a new software program.

    Also, I've seen you all mention the fact that there's no need to buy the "cutting" table with the Pinnacal (I'm assuming it's an additional option rather than standard equipment). I do mostly vector cutting... so if I didn't want to purchase that additional table, what would I use instead? Any ideas?

    Just FYI, I have not been unhappy with my equipment from Universal at all. And anyone wanting to get ahold of George Wendell, do let me know. I tracked him down!

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cape Town, South Africa
    Posts
    3,922
    the GCC drivers are designed for Corel and integrate real well , no problems there at all. Also accept acad , illustrator etc files quite easily. We even send word documents!!!
    You can elevate the stuff you cut any way you like , the idea is to keep it off the table surface. I dont think the cutting table is an option with the GCC machines - ours came with cutting table , spare mirrors , air assist and the rotary attachment. We elected to purchase and use our own exhaust blower and had shop air. The cutting table is useful if cutting thin stuff with small bits or if cutting something into small pieces. elevating the stuff yourself means you have to make sure its very level.
    I don't know the other laser drivers , but with reading between the lines etc , it appears the GCC driver is pretty much up there with them all or exceeds em. Some very nice features are that you can begin engraving from the centre of an item , top to bottom , bottom to top and can move the head by hand and start engraving from where it is.
    Some other useful features are the sorting routines which optimise the engraving as well as the cutting (cuts inside stuff first) and there is a cluster feature that dramatically cuts down engraving time if there is a bit of space between engraved elements.
    I must just make one comment , I run 3 lasers and bought all the same machine and all the same power for a reason. We have 2 design statiions and 2 operators and either of them can send any file to any one of the lasers or to all 3 and queue it , all at the same settings using the same driver.
    One doesnt have to make a decision which laser and use some other driver etc - makes life a lot simpler.
    Personally , I would stick to a system that I know and trust and have had good service with - but thats your choice

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Adelaide , South Australia
    Posts
    34

    Smile

    Do not simply buy on price...never...unles you have written guarantees/ warrantees from the suppliers..some are snake oil salesmen..


    The machines are all basically equivalent, what it comes down to is support.

    Dont kid yourself, In this game, it isnt as simple as using a desktop printer..Do not believe the reps on this....unless they are guaranteeing to back up their words...demand it in writing. If all the machines are around the same price..he who backs his guarantee and reputation in writing is the only person you should buy from..

    There are a number of good distributors on these forums they all sell different machines...in the end...it isnt the machine or the price...it is the back up service.

    If you are new to this game, they ( the unscrupulous ones ) will see you coming, so its not as simple as buying a toaster from the department store, if it doesnt work, the store usually replace it or repair it under warranty...in this game it dont usually work like that ( except for repairs under warranty)and thats another story ( down time etc).

    There are "heaps of traps for young players" in all the machines, so beware...go with the best recommended service and support guarantees every single time.

    regards

    Peter
    Never limit yourself by the shortsighted belief of others.

  14. Thanks for the help!

    Hi Fellas,

    I appreciate your responses.
    I did order a Pinnacle yesterday.
    Actually felt delighted with the information and answers to my questions.
    They have some options that Universal doesn't have that I am thrilled with.
    And the fact that it will instantly work with Corel Draw with no issues is a blessing for me since I have over 400 designs already in use through Corel.
    I did take the advice previously written and didn't order all the extras. I don't see a need for them either.
    I also liked that the bumper-bumper warranty is a year longer than what I recieved with Universal as well.
    The new machine is supposed to be here in just a few days so after I get it used to it, I'll let you know what I think.
    You guys are great!
    I refered the Saw Mill to a number of people I know in the Industry.

    Victoria

  15. #30

    Repair manual for Laser Pro Mercury M-25

    Hi Kevin Huffman ,

    My name is Bryan Rowell and I am from South Africa . My father in law has the older Mercury L-12 . We are batteling to get a service manual for this unit let alone spares here in South Africa . Receintly we got a second machine that was burnt . It caught fire and damaged a lot of parts . I am trying to refurbish this machime for my father in law . I need to get a repair manual for this machine so I can order the parts . Here in SA the agents will not sell me this repair manual . Can you perhaps help me . The model number is Laser Pro Mercury M-25 and the serial number is B09222 . My e-mail address is bryan.africatek@amap.co.za

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