Guest
Nothing sinister implied, "contributor status" is simply a business model for revenue that should be recognized as such, and if an acceptable return on investment was not present, the site would close; Capitalism 101. Let's just not pretend its an eleemosynary institution.Originally Posted by Keith Outten
Member
Probably should fix that link in your sig then. It takes me to a page reading "Invalid Announcement specified."
Member
There are several points that need to be considered:
There is a cost to providing the forum. I am aware of how expensive it can be; I am a partner in an internet game that we have been running since 1994. We have servers in Colorado and Maryland plus one hosted server from a service. The total expenses are in the neighborhood of $800.00 a month. We currently have 49000 users – we do not charge for access and never have. We have no paid staff – all are volunteers. We do not receive any revenue from advertising because we do not do ads.
SMC receives income from contributors and from advertisers (and Friends of the Creek). This income needs to cover expenses and provide a profit.
In order for SMC to be successful it needs to be attractive to the advertisers. The only way it can achieve this is by having a large active member base. Without the members SMC is not viable for long.
In one of his replies Keith stated:
“The change isn't just about revenue, SawMill Creek is about woodworking not sales. “
The change IS about revenue; As Keith said in another post:
“You hit the nail on the head....it isn't our mission to help companies that aren't our advertisers. Yet this is what has been happening....and it has been hampering our ability to market our banner advertisements.”
The implication of this statement is that the mission of SMC is primarily to generate revenue from advertisers; the woodworking support is only secondary.
Woodworking is more than just technique; it also is having the proper tools and supplies for projects. The exchange of information between members regarding the availability of “deals and Discounts” is an important function of SMC.
The exchange of information about products or services provided by other than advertisers is a benefit to the users. The advertisers are competing for our (members) dollars; banning or restricting this information has two affects. First it causes dissatisfaction among the membership. Second it gives no incentive to the advertisers to be competitive in pricing.
Advertiser protection cn be carried too far. I belong to a non-woodworking forum that was doing very well – until they banned all reference/links to suppliers that were not advertisers. Activity has dropped from hundreds of posts a day to 15-20 a day. I would hope that SMC does not continue in this direction.
Member
A question:
Now that this forum is restricted to contributors, is the restriction on posting personal classified going to be lifted?
Member
From "It is our policy to support the free flow of information in a manner
best befitting the woodworking community at large."
To "It is our policy to support the free flow of information in a manner
best befitting Northwind Associates and then the woodworking community at large."
Just a suggestion.
I don't feel one way or the other, it's ya'lls site. Do as you wish. I will note that over time, many sites that used to be free have become paid. I do wonder if this was the business plan all along.
Bill
Guest
Just to be clear, I don't have any problem with a business plan that requires "members" to subscribe for content, Northwind owns the url, the servers, etc. and can do whatever it pleases. But the value of this site is the contribution made by the members in terms of content (which, according to the TOS, becomes the property of Northwind), and by slowly chipping away access the business risk is the alienation of the true content providers. So if its going to be a pay for access site, then that should be fairly and clearly stated, and assume the risk that the "active" membership of 10k+ will start to dwindle along with the knowledge base of those willing to share their expertise, and you might kill the goose, so to speak. Just don't sprinkle water on my head and tell me its raining, that's the hypocrisy I'm speaking of.
Friend of the Creek
Are we really arguing and spending days considering whether to contribute over $6 a year. And questioning if the owner should have the right to limit access to the free ads being provided when the free site is supported by paid advertising. Good grief, go out side and mow the lawn.
Member
The first time I visited SMC I realized the value of the site and promptly made a contribution that exceeded the required $6. I did that because the information that I got that visit was worth a lot more than my contribution. For not much more than the cost of 1 woodworking magazine you can help offset the costs to keep a valuable asset available to you. How much would you pay for the information you have received for "free" if SMC wasn't available? Keith and associates have done a great job and I don't think that I would want the headaches for the return on his time and financial investment. If you really like the forum, kick in the $6 and enjoy and learn. What a bargain!
Member
I was going to make a joke that it wasn't water but I digress.
I find all of this interesting. I don't know the history of this site. If it started out as something of a hobby thing, then dot org is fine. If it has morphed into a for profit organization, then it should be a dot com now. Keeping it as a dot org is misleading. And I know the dot com is taken but it could be renamed/redirected. Some of the posts by the admin are eye opening. Not necessarily what was posted, but what it means.
As far as the content, if you are willing to sift through it, you may find something useful. Since I subscribe to advertisers of this site, I don't feel compelled to contribute here.
Member
Are we not talking about one forum area of many that is not available to non-contributors? I just don't get it.
[OP]
Guest
I can't resist...(I'm an HT user, and it's a joke, so yes, I know that I can still get on a lot of the ones listed below).
"When they came for the Turner's forum...I didn't object"
"When they came for the deals and discounts forum, I didn't object"
"When they came for the woodworking forum, I didn't object"
"When they came for the classifieds forum, I didn't object"
..
"When they took away my neanderthal forum....there was noone else to object"
haha.
Member
Does it really matter, there are usually one deal for everyone, for every 10 (not in my area) Craigslist deals. There are other sites that have lots of deals that are available to everyone instead of looking at Craigslist postings here. I can just check Craigslist if I want to find out the deals posted here.
Contributor
It should be noted that SMC doesn't "impose" users fees. Maybe the better question is...what woodworking site is the largest and most visited? I'll answer that...it's SMC. How did that happen?
I've been here from the beginning...through many...many...many of these changes. Keith has had many people tell him ALL the things he was doing wrong. I watched people stomp off just because Keith didn't agree with him. Guess what...Keiths baby keeps growing...and growing.
Glenn ClaboMichigan
Administrator
SawMill Creek is a Community of woodworkers.
We are here to discuss, share and enjoy all that is woodworking. If deals and discounts are what you are most interested in you are in the wrong place. You can wheel and deal buy and sell elsewhere but those are not activities that are important here.
I have spent a lot of years listening to the people here and I know what the majority of the woodworkers here prefer. This is why The Creek is the largest and most active woodworking forum on the Net. I am going to stick with what got us here and that ladies and gentlemen is providing a friendly place for woodworkers to gather and share their woodworking experiences. The fact is I don't want people visiting The Creek just to buy and sell, there are other sites that provide those services.
I appreciate constructive criticism and positive suggestions but please don't suggest that I need to ask permission to make changes to a company that I own or that I am obligated to provide financial information about our privately owned company.
Back to woodworking folks!!!
.
Last edited by Keith Outten; 07-01-2010 at 7:13 PM.
Contributor
No private business is required to disclose any financial results including total profit. Your $6 does not entitle you to this information.
Do you ask the local mom and pop privately owned gas station for a P & L statement after you purchase gas there? I didn't think so.
Even if Northwind has 10,000 susbcribers at $6 each that is only $60,000 a year before expenses. How many of us make over $60,000 a year?
That said, Kieth could run this as a not for profit entity as many forums do. There are plenty of forums surviving wiith advertising alone.
Posting Permissions
