Were things really that much better...?

[Mitchell Andrus]

I was commenting to a friend about how year by year, a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.

Spills in every ocean and sea. Oil on too many coastlines to count. Love canal. Soot in the air. Acid rain. More CO2 than nature can absorb. Chinese drywall. Formaldihide emitting emergency trailers.....

He countered with:

150 years ago - open sewers. Coal and wood heated homes. Horse manure in the streets. Lead in the paint. Polio. Black Plague.

So, was it better 150 years ago, or are things better or getting better now?
.

[David Weaver]

Aside from a moral and ethical (and even that's debatable, I guess, depending on your spin), I think things are a lot better now.

Relative purchasing power is higher, leisure time is higher, conveniences are higher, health care is better.

The only thing is we're living so well we have a lot more time to complain and more options to let problems fester or try to get someone else to take care of them rather than face them straight away ourselves. My grandparents spent a lot of their time just trying to figure out when they were going to have enough time to get everything done and still sleep and keep the wheels on the wagon (sometimes literally) and food on the table. Both of them were worn out like old tires when their clocks stopped ticking, and they knew they had it better than the generations before them.

[Rod Sheridan]

I agree with David.

Also we are really one of the first generations to have large amounts of disposable income and lots of leisure time.

In addition we're far more numerous than before, and are consuming resources and polluting the world with non bio-degradable pollution at a rate that wasn't possible before.

Horse manure might not smell nice, but it doesn't kill wildlife like the oil in the gulf is doing at present.

Regards, Rod.

[Pat Germain]

Horse manure might not smell nice, but it doesn't kill wildlife like the oil in the gulf is doing at present.

But it was a huge health hazard. It spread parasites and other nasties. And before it's properly broken down, manure is toxic.

One area where I think things were better was dealing with criminals. There was a bigger problem with innocent people being accused and convicted. But the guilty were dealt with appropriately. While I've never read any official accounts, I strongly believe anyone caught doing anything sinister with a child was just shot or hanged and that was the end of it. Monsters were not paroled and allowed more victims.

And all those terrible environmental situations from 150 years ago are still going strong all over the world. I've seen it first hand. Outside North America and Europe, raw sewage is dumped into rivers and the ocean. Toxic chemicals are left to stew in large, open pools. Cars and trucks spew smoke and soot everywhere. (Yet, North America is always labelled as the environmental bad guy.)

[Michael MacDonald]

don'tcha think that our current destructive activities are on a larger scale than our past destructive activites? more people, larger scale production, trend toward disposable...

can't remember where I got this link... makes me go "hmmm".

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

watch the story of stuff video...

[Belinda Barfield]

One area where I think things were better was dealing with criminals. There was a bigger problem with innocent people being accused and convicted. But the guilty were dealt with appropriately. While I've never read any official accounts, I strongly believe anyone caught doing anything sinister with a child was just shot or hanged and that was the end of it. Monsters were not paroled and allowed more victims.

Pat has a valid point. Deal appropriately with criminals. Enforce the laws we have on the books. I believe this would make for a more civil society. What good is my leisure time if I am afraid to walk my city's streets?

Each generation seems to feel less resposible for the results of their actions. Whether using disposables, not recycling, committing sinister acts with a child, or murder, may believe that they are not at fault and that someone else will take care of the problem.

[Pat Germain]

Each generation seems to feel less resposible for the results of their actions. Whether using disposables, not recycling, committing sinister acts with a child, or murder, may believe that they are not at fault and that someone else will take care of the problem.

I agree people don't seem to want to be responsible for their own actions. But I think people were much less environmentally responsible in the recent past.

When I was a kid in the 1970's, my family used to camp in the desert. And when I say camp in the desert, I mean we'd pitch a tent in the middle of nowhere in the Mojave; no campgrounds, no roads, no nothing. While my dad was riding motorcycles with his buddies, my brothers and and I would often wander around and explore. (I'm surprised we didn't die of exposure out there.) In any direction we went, we'd find abandoned vehicles, beer cans, matresses and all sorts of trash. We once came across a very large mesquite tree where someone had hanged dozens of jackrabbits. This tree was literally "decorated" with jackrabbits that had mummified in the desert air. I found it quite disturbing, but almost nobody gave a rip about abusing animals back then.

I lived near Huntington Beach when it was peppered with soda and beer can "pop-tops". Remember those? Step on one the wrong way and it would slice your foot. (As illustrated in Jimmy Buffett's song "Margaritaville".) People also left garbage all over the beach.

I also remember people draining motor oil right into the ground or dumping it into storm drains. It seemed everywhere I looked there were old tires lying around. (As well as atop mobile homes; as is still the case.)

When I was in the Navy, as soon as the ship was outside the twelve mile limit, I'd hear, "The fantail is now open for the dumping of trash". This was quite a sight. We'd dump hundreds of plastic bags full of garbage. Sure, we'd poke a hole in them to help them sink. But they would bob on the surface in a long line for a long time. (And Soviet "Fishing Trawlers" would hook them and pull them in looking for any information.) We would also dump paint, solvents, old safes, desks chairs, you name it. We'd put so many coffee grounds into the water, the screws would churn them up and turn the water brown. I once heard someone refer to this a "sea tea".

Before I got out the Navy, we had to abide by new laws which prohibited dumping plastic and aluminum, as well as toxic chemicals. We'd have to store it onboard and then pay someone to collect it in a foreign port. (Then they would take it out to sea and dump it.)

[Belinda Barfield]

Pat, you have had a much greater exposure to the world than I so I defer to you on your assessment of past and current levels of environmental responsibility. I was thinking in terms things I see everywhere every day like one use plastic water bottles, styrofoam fast food containers, paper and plastic bags, plastic utensils, aluminum cans, etc. All the conveniences of "modern" life.

[Jim Rimmer]

My wife and I vacationed in England in '95; pollution in London was so bad many people wore paper masks. You could feel the grit on your face at the end of the day and the exhaust fumes were almost overwhelming. It drove home to me how much our country had done to reduce auto emissions and it was working.

I spent several weeks in Algeria in '94 and the smell was awful. Raw sewage in the ditches. The drinking water used by the locals was brown. They would take our empty water bottles and fill them. They could only fill them about 2/3 fuul because the water would foam as it went into the bottle.

I was on a job in Mexico in late 90s and saw a truck from the chemical plant I was in drive away with about 20 drums of sloshing fluids (no lids) and go into the woods behind the plant. A few hours later the truck returned with empty barrels.

I think we are doing better now but coverage of earth unfriendly events is more widespread and detailed so we know more about it. My wife and I recycle diligently and as a result have only a couple of small bags of trash to be sent to the landfill each week and it is truly garbage - fruit peels, bones, etc.

[Pat Germain]

Pat, you have had a much greater exposure to the world than I so I defer to you on your assessment of past and current levels of environmental responsibility. I was thinking in terms things I see everywhere every day like one use plastic water bottles, styrofoam fast food containers, paper and plastic bags, plastic utensils, aluminum cans, etc. All the conveniences of "modern" life.

Oh yeah, I see your point, Belinda. There sure is a lot of that these days. I guess we've traded some kinds of waste and pollution with others. We sure have become a throw away society. Interestingly, a lot of that changed when the economy tanked in 2008. Things the thrift stores previously wouldn't even take were suddenly in high demand. People are also recycling more. Maybe the recession acted like a big pause button and gave people a chance to stop and look around at what they were doing.

Many communities are banning those plastic shopping bags. I've always hated those things. I ask for paper bags; not so much for the environment. I just like paper bags much better. But it is pretty sad to see millions of those plastic shopping bags peppering the landscape whenever we get a lot of wind in Colorado. I also have some cloth bags I use for groceries. (When I remember to bring them.)

[Belinda Barfield]

Single stream curbside recyling arrived in Savannah about two years ago.

http://www.savannahga.gov/cityweb/Sa...a?OpenDocument

I live in a condo complex that has a single dumpster, no recycling bins. Any items to be recycled have to be taken by me to one of several different facilities. They haven't made it easy here.

I reuse the plastic bags as garbage bags and, like Pat, I use my cloth bags when I remember to take them with me.

[Jim Finn]

[QUOTE=Michael MacDonald;1463907]don'tcha think that our current destructive activities are on a larger scale than our past destructive activites? more people, larger scale production, trend toward disposable...
Not so sure..... I remember seeing a brown haze over Milwaukee back in the 50's along with grey snow. (Coal dust on top of snow). I also know many folks, farmers espicialy, use to abandon old farm equipment and automobiles in the field or behind the barn. (The scrap drives for WW2 cleaned a lot of that up). Used to make toothpaste tubes of Lead (yuk). Dumping old automotive oil on the ground was common. Burning leaves was fun. Used to burn off acres of tall grass instead of mowing it. Lots of smoke and fire risk. Asbestos brake pads were used and they are bad for the envirioment. Leaded Gasoline also. Smoking old cars were common. Old tires were burned producing a LOT of smoke. The list goes on...

[Chuck Wintle]

I was commenting to a friend about how year by year, a generation at a time we're getting used to the fact that we're turning this planet into a giant toilet bowl.

Spills in every ocean and sea. Oil on too many coastlines to count. Love canal. Soot in the air. Acid rain. More CO2 than nature can absorb. Chinese drywall. Formaldihide emitting emergency trailers.....

He countered with:

150 years ago - open sewers. Coal and wood heated homes. Horse manure in the streets. Lead in the paint. Polio. Black Plague.

So, was it better 150 years ago, or are things better or getting better now?
.

no it was worse way back when....it's called looking back with rose colored glasses.

[Art Mulder]

Better then? Hmm

• I take a hot shower most every morning, and I never use an outhouse (unless camping)
• For the past sweltering week I've been coming home to blessed low humidity and cool temps in my Air conditioned house.
• I get paid vacation with my job, and work far less than a 12hr day
• I have time and money to fund a hobby.
• I have several family members who might not be here were it not for modern medicine

Nahh, I'll take now.

[Scott T Smith]

It's much better today, and we continue to improve.

Pittsburg 40 years ago was a black, sooty city from the steel mills. Today it's a clean metropolitan area.

Chicago at the turn of the city had a coal smoke haze so bad downtown that people would move away from the city in the summer, and the breadwinner would commute into town daily.

150 years ago there was little curbside trash collection - especially in rural areas, and not much transportation infrastructure to haul it.

9 years ago I purchased part of an old farm in North Carolina (dating back to the 1800's), and proceeded to clean up 100 years worth of trash that had been discarded behind the buildings.

Are we where we want to be worldwide? Probably not - but still much better than before.