Dust collection overload

[Dan Chouinard]

Was in my dusty shop until 8:20 tonight to complete current project so we can leave in the morning for a week of camping. Exhausted but will try to reply...

Outside exhaust does not sound practical for my situation. Neighbors might complain and although my parents property is zoned commercial they would rather not get the town involved. Is a one man woodworking shop commercial or industrial?

John, I just may take you up on that offer for a show and tell at your shop when we get back to town. Now if I can just find a craiglist deal down your way I can kill two birds....

Bob, the shop attic is more of a crawl space but perhaps the storage shed attached to the rear of the shop could be utilized? Would think some sound isolation of some sort would have to be done to keep peace with the neighbors.

Paul, somewhere between visable and medical dust collection seams to be a reasonable goal. Its strange how environmental conditions effect people differently. I seem to have rather low tolerance for dust and odors in general. My dad on the other hand would work in clouds of dust and have no consequences. Cant even imagine the gallons of kerosene, paint thinner and other various nasty liquids have soaked into him over the years. Never mind all the rat poisons, insecticides, horse hair plaster dust... Dude is 86 years old and could still kick my but up and down the street. He still rides his bicycle 50 miles a week and swims 2 1/4 miles a week. Go figure.

No sympathy please Kent. Was hoping for a group hug though. Whats a little dust between friends?

Dan

[Paul Wunder]

Dan,

Last month's Wood magazine had a pretty good article on dust control, methods, how to size, etc. They include a table which will help you size your system and your ductwork. They also use cfm requirement numbers by machine that are higher than Oneida would recommend but lower than Bill Pentz would use (kind of between good dust collection and medical collection).

When figuring your machines you may want to consider collecting dust from the top of your table saw as well as from below. Same with a router table. This is the type of situation that will push you into higher hp and cfms, but it does wonders for keeping your shop and lungs clean.

Paul

[Steve Milito]

At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

FWIW: using the spreadsheet on the Pentz web site gives static pressures much higher than other methods. Hard to say which method is incorrect.

There is a significant difference between the output of a 3 hp V-3000 series and a Gorilla 3hp unit:

The fan curve on the Gorilla is measured at the 7" inlet according to Oneida, and they publish a full fan curve on their website. Typical output is 800 cfm at 10.0" static pressure.

The V-3000 is not accompanied by a fan curve created using the same methodology. Using a 4" pipe Oneida claims 840 cfm at 7.4" of static pressure. The cfm may be close but at a reduction of about 25% in pressure levels. Oneida does not even show a full fan curve at a consistent pipe size on their web site for this model. using a 6" pipe, they show 1285 cfm at 3.0" of static pressure.

Both Grizzly and ClearVue publish full fan curves using a consistent methodology for their units as is the standard practice.

[Paul Wunder]

[QUOTE=Steve Milito;1464889]At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

Steve,

We are both correct, I believe, but some explanation is in order.

Your comparison numbers at 3.0" of static pressure are correct with about a 10% difference. However cyclone systems do not run at 3.0"; they typically run at 7" and above. It is there where the fall off in performance approaches 25%. At higher static pressures the V-3000 can't keep up with the Dust Gorilla. That's why I used the higher numbers for comparison.

I am not trying to disparage either machine just pointing out the differences. At my point of purchase, I looked at the Dust Gorrilla, the V-3000 and bought the ClearVue.

[Steve Milito]

[QUOTE=Paul Wunder;1465042]

At 3" of water the V3000 is 1285 CFM and the Gorilla is ~1450 CFM. (1450-1285)/1450 is ~ 11.4%.

Per my conversation with Oneida, The V3000 has a 13.5" impeller, and the Gorilla is 14.25". Which is a 10% difference in fan area.

Steve,

We are both correct, I believe, but some explanation is in order.

Your comparison numbers at 3.0" of static pressure are correct with about a 10% difference. However cyclone systems do not run at 3.0"; they typically run at 7" and above. It is there where the fall off in performance approaches 25%. At higher static pressures the V-3000 can't keep up with the Dust Gorilla. That's why I used the higher numbers for comparison.

I am not trying to disparage either machine just pointing out the differences. At my point of purchase, I looked at the Dust Gorrilla, the V-3000 and bought the ClearVue.

I'm trying to sort it out myself, but 10" of H20 is on the edge of the operation region of the V3000. I think that the Pentz site over estimates static pressure loss. I get about 2 inches of water difference when I do it by hand, which moves the operational point from outside of the operational region of the V3000 to well within it. This biggest air flow killers are WYEs and elbows. I think a sp of 8" H20 is a reasonable assumption for a home shop and if your much above that you may want to look at the duct work design.
FWIW: The Oneida salesperson has repeatedly insisted that the V3000 will provide 800+ CFM with 6" duct in a three car garage. But then again, he is trying to make a sale.

[Dan Chouinard]

Finally have enough work lined up (3 maybe 4 kitchens!) to buy dust collection system.

PSI 3.5HP TEMPEST cyclone - $1125
Oneida V3000 cyclone - $1195
Clear Vue 1800 - $1345

Which would you buy?

Happy Thanksgiving to all you fine Creekers.
Go Pats!

[Jim O'Dell]

Dan, I can't answer that specifically, because when I was researching for my purchase, neither the Gorilla nor the V3000 were available. I shopped between the Oneida 3 hp commercial, the newly introduced first generation Grizzly, and the Clear Vue. I glanced at the PSI unit, but it quickly fell off the page. At the time, the CV unit clearly (pun intended ) offered more for the money, and it followed the Pentz parameters of design, which I still feel offers the best separation. It's a 5 hp Leeson motor compared to less power on the others you are considering. I decided to exhaust outside, so filters didn't come into the equation for me, and the price savings helped too. In the end, my top three were the Clear Vue, the Grizzly, then the Oneida, in that order. Unit price was crucial in the decision as well.
I would recommend going with a full size cyclone instead of the shortened ones, which I believe the V3000 is, unless you have an issue with height that a full cyclone won't work under, and can't find a way to make modifications so that it will work. When you make compromises for one thing, it usually messes with something else. I wouldn't want that to be separation of small particles.
Oh, and wait until you start thinking about bandsaws!!! You'll just think this was a tough one!!! Jim.

[Aaron Montgomery]

I just ordered a V3000 from Oneida. (Hasn't shipped) I also had ceiling height issues that limited the cyclones that would fit. They recommended either the V3000 or V5000. As much as I'm inclined to buy more than I need, I made the decision to go with the V3000. Why? Because it was $265 cheaper, the V5000 was 50% louder and the delta CFM increase at 4" of water was < 5%. Oneida was very helpful and did send me a fan curve for the V3000. I'm sure they'd be willing to send it to anyone that requested it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (it happens), but it seems really difficult to compare some of these fan curves and make them applicable to our applications. For instance, the V3000 has a 6" inlet, where the V5000 has a 8" inlet. For a given static pressure, the V5000 (or Gorilla, 441, etc) is going to move considerably more air through an 8" pipe than a 6" pipe. My guess is that the fan curve is done using 8" pipe. For each of the Gorillas or Tempests or CVs, if they are all installed with 6" duct work (which I believe that most of us are using), then I wouldn't expect there to be significant difference in their performance. (let's say within a few 100 CFM of each other) I would expect the larger machines are going to do much better as the static pressure increases for longer runs.

I also recall reading that although the Gorilla series does move as much as the V series, the V series has better separation. I believe that this was due to the inlet being in the cone verses the Gorilla that has the inlet above the cone. That's not to say that the Gorilla has bad separation, just that the V series has improved on it.

[Dan Chouinard]

The smaller footprint of the clearvue is very appealing for my little shop. Not familiar with 230 volts though. Is this much of an issue?