Hand cut dovetails class

[George Clark]

Mike,

I think your outline sounds fine. You have already received several good suggestions. I would encourage you to prepare some written handouts on the material to be covered. I realize there is gaggle of books and articles out there on cutting dovetails, covering a multitude of techniques and it would be good to reference your favorites. But, what I am referring to is handout referenced to exactly what you intend to cover and how you want it done. I think this accomplishes two important items. First, it forces you really organize your presentation in a meaningful manner and second, it frees the students from trying to take a lot of notes and allows them to really pay attention to your presentation.

I have taken a lot of woodworking classes at several different schools from a multitude of instructors. Without fail, all the instructors have all been masters of their craft. However, there was a huge difference in their ability to transfer those skills to the students, particularly beginning students. That difference was primarily determined by the amount of effort that had been put into focusing on the teaching process. None of these people became masters of their craft without a lot of hard work and study but for some reason some were unwilling to put that same effort and study into teaching their craft. They seemed to believe that because they were a master craftsman that made them a master instructor, NOT. Some, who I refer to as hip shooters, actually appeared plan their lesson based on the ebb and flow of the class. While this "technique" can be interesting it is frequently a huge waste of time in a class where time is limited. (stepping down from the soapbox)

Given that there are so many different methods and techniques of cutting dovetails, I would encourage you to pick what works best for you and request that your students do it that way, at least until they master it.

I hope my little diatribe is of some limited value.

George

[Jim Barrett]

Mike,
Layouts using a pair of dividers, quick and easy.
Sawing...saw, saw, saw, saw, saw, saw...I think sawing is the most important aspect of a successful dovetail. If you can saw accurately to a line you are light years ahead. The goal is to put a dovetail together without any pairing....will take some practice....lots of practice
Chiseling...how to hold a chisel correctly and comfortably...chopping TO the line and not BRUISING that line....
Of course sharpening is a whole "nother" subject!
Best,
Jim

[Robert Trotter]

The saw exercises are a good idea as others have said. However, I think some good chiselling exercises would be very useful as well. As an example, when I started making dovetails, it was not the sawing that got me, but the chisel work. As stated before, not bruising the tails when removing the waste, how to remove waste entirely with chisels in hardwood and softwood. I have found that removing waste in hardwood is easier with a chisel than in softwood where the fibres crush more.

Also maybe touch on removing the waste with chisels (chopping) or with a coping saw and then paring (chopping) to the line etc.

You could have some exercise where they have to pare to a line or chop to a line and keep all "socket" bases in line, and square. You could watch and give pointers about what is not going right.

Chisel work is important - if your are acurate with the saw then the final product will depend on chisel work and if your are not accurate with a saw then cleaning up will be chisel work.

Just my 2 yen worth

[Steve Branam]

This is all very timely. I've just posted a blog entry detailing the class I'll be teaching: CloseGrain.com/2010/07/class-introduction-to-hand-tool.html.

The outline is something I've been working on for a while. I think it covers most of the points brought up here (I've also just revamped my links, including forum links). It's very helpful to see what other details people want to see covered in a class.

The time will definitely be a challenge, so we'll just have to see how it goes. I may have to make a few executive decisions along the way.

I'll be following up that post with materials for the class over the coming weeks. Feel free to help yourselves if you find it useful (just please give credit to the source), this is all stuff I learned from others, including some of you folks here.

[Roy Lindberry]

I recently committed to teach a one day (about 6 hours) class on hand cut dovetails and would like your comments on what to teach in the class. The class size would be a max of six people, and a minimum of three.

I'll probably start with defining what a dovetail joint is, then what it's used for. Then the types of dovetails joints, and where you'd use different types of dovetail joints.

Probably then discuss the tools used in dovetail joinery, including how to make your own layout (tail angle) gauge, and how to mark the depth without a marking gauge.

Next, I'll discuss how to layout the dovetails across the board, and what indicates hand cut dovetails compared to machine cut dovetails.

Then demonstrate how to cut a through dovetail, and have the students cut theirs.

Later, demonstrate a half blind and have the students cut theirs.

Then a discussion of how to glue and clamp the joint, with perhaps a demonstration. And how to trim the joint with a plane after the glue has set.

No project - just pieces of wood joined together. I could add a section on how to repair mistakes in dovetails, but I might not have time to cover that in detail.

Any comments or suggestions? All will be appreciated.

Mike

I'm still learning to do dovetails by hand, so take my opinion for what its worth.

I like the idea of a handout, but by and large, I would suggest a minimum amount of "book learning" and a maximum of demonstration and hands-on practice. For myself, I've noticed that reading about it has helped minimally, but nearly every time I do it, I'm able to improve at least a little bit.

[Robby Tacheny]

Watching the Frank Klausz dovetailing drawers video helped me a lot, even though I am just barely starting handcut dovetails. So I agree that watching someone and trying will be the best experience. I would recommend showing them how to layout tails for a drawer or box so that the groove is in the proper place. Otherwise, their first project may get ruined by improper layout.

Good luck on the course.

-R

[David Keller NC]

Mike - This is what I include in the one-day classes I've taught on this subject. Like others on this thread, I found that it was necessary to sharply limit the subjects covered so that I could have the students come away with two or more completed joints in scrap wood (a through-dovetail and a half-blind):

Tools. I take about an hour to discuss the required tools, suggest brands and where to get them, and give the students a paper list:

Dovetail saw (most of the discussion is spent with this subject - I suggest the Lee Valley saws as the least expensive option that will still work and not frustrate a beginner, and why this is so).

Dividers (any inexpensive ones will do)

Bevel Gauge (any inexpensive one will do, I recommend the Lee Valley ones). Alternatively, a fixed-angle dovetail marker (also recommend the inexpensive Lee Valley aluminum extrusions)

Small square (just about anything in the 3-4" range, I usually recommend the small engineer's squares)

Marking Knife (I go over the Ian Kirby pocketknife modification, and direct students that want a fancier tool to Lee Valley, Chester, Blue Spruce, etc...)

Chisel - I recommend a 1/4" and a 1/2" pair from the Borg for those that are cost sensitive, and go over how to correctly sharpen them. Others that aren't as cost sensitive I refer to Lie Nielsen.

Fret Saw - I recommend the elcheapo frames from Woodcraft, the Borg, or wherever, and then tell the students to replace the stock blade with a much more aggressive one from Olsen

Wheel Cutting Gauge - I mention these, but also tell the students that they're "nice to haves".

Magnifying glass - elcheapos from the drug store. Not required for experienced folks, but a great aid to beginning sawyers.

Reference material - I recommend Ian Kirby's book to the students because it's well-rounded and it's cheap, and I mention Rob Cosman's videos for students that prefer video over books.

For visual aids, I bring 2 drawers along, and some pictures of case dovetails. This discussion of "what to do with a dovetail", "types of dovetails", and "handcut versus router cut" is minimized - I find most of the students already know since they're going from machine to hand-cut.

After that, the rest of the day (typically 4 hours or so) is taken up with first demoing the layout, sawing, chiseling and fitting of the joint, then allowing enough time for 2 to 3 cycles of the students trying their own, and troubleshooting problems. I repeat this for through-dovetails and half blinds.

Generally speaking, I find that this much content is all I (or the students) can handle in one day, and it's a pretty fast paced day. I leave out a lot - drawer and case construction, glues, clamping, workholding, decorative joints, woods, variations on methods (such as coping saw vs. fret saw vs. chopping), jigs, aids and just touch on sharpening. The reason is that I found most students couldn't absorb all of the info, and it interfered with the important part (in my judgement) - giving the students the thrill of being able correctly layout, cut and fit a completely hand-sawn joint that they had previously considered unreachable.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

Just one point to make ...

My pet dislike when watching a video of someone demonstrating a technique, especially a hand skill such as dovetailing, is that they stand on a spot and talk and talk and talk ...

What I don't understand is why they do not talk and work/demonstrate simultaneously?

Do not lecture for long. Rather get the members - or at least one or two - to try out what you are describing. Maximise the hands-on involvement and minimise the lecturing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Thank you all for your suggestions. David, those are very good suggestions and I'll follow your advice.

Mike

[Gary Hodgin]

I agree with Jim that this is an ambitious plan for 6 hrs. It depends on what the students bring to class. It's one thing if they all have sharp chisels and appropriate saws, but if you have to teach sharpening, chisel control, and sawing, the 6 hrs is going to go by pretty fast. (What if these students chisels are terribly out-of-shape?) I don't see how much can be done beyond through dovetails, and that will push it.

Several years ago, I took a 5 day class on hand tools use, which was really a 5 day course on how to dovetail a box. We spend at least a day and a half on milling, sharpening, and chisel and hand saw techniques. Now that may seem like a long time, but actually it was a rushed affair.

Almost everyone, including me, came to class with a set of Marple's blue handled chisels right off the shelf at Lowe's. These chisels worked, but they needed a great deal of prep. Our grinders were hand grinders (no one had experience with those) and we only had about a third enough for the class. We had a couple of sets of old water stones for 12 people. Everything went pretty smooth after all this prep. (Milling was part of the prep.) We each had a good work bench and the instructor was great. But, it took use a long time (a lot more than 6 hrs) to get to the actual layout and cutting of through dovetails. The course didn't cover other dovetail joints.

I know from my experience as a teacher that there is always a trade-off between what I think students should know about something and what I can reasonably fit into one or two fifty minute lectures. By far and away the biggest problem is how to condense what I think is important into the lecture. Beyond that I assign homework and just recognize its not doable within the allotted time.

[Greg Crawford]

Mike,

I am still pretty new to hand tools, especially dovetails. I started with the Cosman DVD/workbook, and then took a 6 hour class that had 4 students. We didn't really have enough time for everyone to get a good set of through dovetails. I think trying for the half-blind in the same class would be pushing it.

Lots of other great suggestions (like some exercises that I'll probably be doing on my own). I've taught in other areas, and found that I would sometimes forget what it took for me to get where I was. I could accomplish something quickly and easily, because I had plenty of practice. The students didn't have that yet, so I always tried to set my schedule by remembering back to when I started. Often times I wound up removing content from the curriculum.

Since I had already practiced a little, I knew to expect to at least hone chisels, so I took a sharpening stone with me. Might suggest that to the students in materials needed.

Hope all goes well, and that everyone has a good time learning.

Greg

[Scott Stafford]

... and Larry learned well. His dovetails consistantly looked great!

Scott in Montana

[Larry Fox]

... and Larry learned well. His dovetails consistantly looked great!

Scott in Montana

HA - thanks Scott but I fear that you are being too kind, long way to go. Good to meet you and yours look great as well.

[James Owen]

Mike,

Great outline! Very thorough!

Based on my experience teaching dovetail (and other hand tool) classes, you have two to three days worth of material there.

Nothing in a "hands-on" class EVER goes as quickly as scheduled..... Students ask unanticipated questions, are slower at completing the exercises, etc, etc..... Not a criticism of the students, but something that I've learned while teaching classes: what is intuitive to and quick for you (the instructor) ain't necessarily so, when it comes to the students (that's why they're in your class!! )

Unless you know otherwise, plan your class for "inexperienced" students....

As others have mentioned, it's important that the students are able to sense that they have learned/accomplished something worthwhile (and worth the tuition...), so I would limit the lecture/demonstration part to approximately 1/3 of the total class time (not necessarily continuous time) and have the students doing hands-on activities for approx 2/3 of the time.

Other than that, looks like you have a very good class set up. I hope that both you and your students have a great time!!

[James Owen]

Well, before I can answer, I need to know whether you will be teaching tails first or pins? ;-)

Sean....

There always has to be a comedian in the mix, eh?!?