Am I insane....

[Trey Palmer]

Hi. i'm new.

Wanted to try fine woodworking.

Like history. Don't have much room.

Bought planes on ebay.

Learned to sharpen. Kinda.

Building workbench.

Bought SYP for top.

All of that I can deal with. Kind of. I guess.

The real problem is....

I just ripped the first benchtop strip off a 2x10x8' SYP board by hand.
Just to see how hard it was.

As expected, it's not easy. It took me 45 minutes including considerable rest time, using a 14" 14TPI crosscut Sharksaw. I'd guess you could do it a lot faster with practice and the right saw, sawbench, etc.
That might actually be acceptable.

So, like, assuming the lack of stationary power tools, would the rest of you evil insane people keep ripping them by hand, or would you use a circ saw and guide? If (A), what kind of saw would you use?

And, uhhhh, thanks! I guess.

[Carl Maeda-San Diego]

Not sure what a Sharksaw is but It'll go a lot faster if you rip it using a rip saw with something like 8 or 10 TPI.
If you sharpen the saw further, it will cut better too. Most saws could at least use a little sharpening unless you get a premium brand saw.
SYP is hard for a pine too.
It just takes practice.
I'm not sure a circular saw has the depth needed to make the cut unless the workbench isn't that deep. You'll likely need several passes too.

[glenn bradley]

Tailed tools are not the devil. I use a Porter Cable Mag 324 but if you are not looking for a finished edge (that is; you intend to hand plane to finish) there are cheaper circ saws that will do the job. I would look for something used if you are going Neander as you probably won't use it much.

[Leigh Betsch]

I've got a $12,000 table saw, a $2500 band saw, and a couple of $100 hand saws. Sanity is a relative term and those inside the sport are totally un-capable of an objective opinion. So no you are not insane, you just need to get more tools, tailed or un-tailed. And if anyone ever says you've got to be sane to be in this sport please send them to me or anyone else here that has gone down the slipper plane slope!

[Trey Palmer]

I have a reasonably good circ saw (and an unused new Freud blade). What I don't have is a place inside where the dust it generates is reasonable, and it was both dark and raining. Dust control and convenience are leading me towards Festool -- but that's a dangerous non-sequitur in multiple ways.

Shark is an inexpensive brand of Japanese style pull saw, but many/most models have western style plastic handles. I bought a "general carpentry saw" model based on stellar Amazon reviews and, with the caveat that I've never used a sharp Disston or equivalent, it's the first handsaw of any type I've ever found enjoyable to use. I love it for cross-cutting and it will also rip a few feet of 3/4" thick stock quickly enough that I wouldn't even consider dealing with a circular saw instead. I am getting better at keeping it straight. I bought a more expensive bamboo-handled rip/cross-cut Ryoba at Highland Hardware, but the Shark Saw is much better even for ripping at least in my incapable hands.

[Dave Matson]

Ripping big boards by hand is not for the feint of heart (seriously it can give you a heart attack), but I would definitely keep at it since its great exercise and offers substantial bragging rights. You will be cleaning up the workbench top/bottom with a handplane anyway so surface finish should not be a big problem.
Sounds like a 14" 14tpi saw is too small for the job. The sharksaws seen on google are pull saws and have impulse hardened teeth so they cannot be resharpened easily. Try getting a 4-5tpi rip saw. If its a bit dull you can re-sharpened it and learn a new skill.

I tried using a keystone timber saw to rip some 4x7 green cypress beams a few days ago and it worked well, but still took probably 20 minutes per board.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Welcome to Sawmill creek Trey. You need a rip saw. Ripping is a lot of work, but it's pretty satisfying. A 14 tpi crosscut saw in that application would be very frustrating. You need fewer, larger teeth per inch for a more aggressive cut, and they need to be filed rip.

[Trey Palmer]

Welcome to Sawmill creek Trey. You need a rip saw. Ripping is a lot of work, but it's pretty satisfying. A 14 tpi crosscut saw in that application would be very frustrating. You need fewer, larger teeth per inch for a more aggressive cut, and they need to be filed rip.

Thanks Jonathan.

I think if I could do each rip in 10-15 minutes I'd be more than satisfied to do it that way. It's a hobby, and I need the workout. Is that a reasonable expectation?

Would you get an old Disston, or a frame saw?

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

I have both (too many) Disstons and a frame saw, and the problem that I've found is that a 26" frame saw tends to have its balance point too far forward, which means it stresses my wrist out. I haven't figured out how to fix this problem yet. They can be got for relative cheap, though, and it's probably the least expensive way to get a 5 tpi rip blade. I prefer traditional Western handsaws like the Disston because of the wrist problem.

Basically either will work. The frame saws have very real advantages sometimes (and at the same time have a hard time with wide boards and plywood), and if they didn't hurt me to use them I would probably still be using mine. Tage Frid has a technique for doing long rips at the bench that would probably work out better than one-handing something that big.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Thanks Jonathan.

I think if I could do each rip in 10-15 minutes I'd be more than satisfied to do it that way. It's a hobby, and I need the workout. Is that a reasonable expectation?

Would you get an old Disston, or a frame saw?

Hmm. As to time, I was replacing some window-sill extender thingees in douglas fir, and three feet took about fifteen minutes. I'd suppose DF is a lot like SYP in that respect. But it's good to have one around (or in my case, at least a few . . . .). And not every cut is going to be eight feet in difficult wood. I'd contend that 3/4 inch soft No. 2 pine is quicker to rip than to crosscut. You really zip through that stuff.

If I were in the market for a rip saw I'd probably get a Disston No. 7 or D-7. A thumbhole grip D-8 would be suitable but I think people want a lot of money for them because they somehow seem exotic to people who want to sell them, and the market perception creates a market reality, though they're actually not uncommon. An old No. 7 filed rip is usually going to be a big old thing, up to 28 inches long. Technically, every rip saw ought to be 28 inches, whereas a hand saw is 26, and anything less is going to be a panel saw.

If you see a saw that's filed with six or fewer teeth per inch, it's going to be a rip saw. If you see one out in the wild, don't get one that's been so used up that it's shaped like a triangle. I'd recommend that you don't get hung up about whether it's a Disston or not. As long as it's straight, has 4 - 6 tpi, and isn't so rusty that it's pitted--though it can be hard to tell on ebay. Sawing with a rusty saw is unnecessarily difficult. Clean it up with some mineral spirits and a scraper and some sandpaper. Wax it up with paraffin wax and give it a whirl. You may have to sharpen it, but rip saws are good to learn on and there are several places that'll show you how.

[Trey Palmer]

Thanks for the help guys!

I'm not religious enough about hand work to spend $250 on a new Lie Nielsen et al. saw when that would get me to half of a Festool TS55 and probably further than that towards a decent used bandsaw.

Bad Axe Tool Works is something worth considering.

I live 2 miles from Highland Hardware and suspect they can hook me up with someone to sharpen a used saw....

[george wilson]

You can generally keep putting out only about 1/10 H.P.,with about 1/2 H.P. bursts. Either figure is very,very low compared to what even a cheap power tool can do.

Therefore,you need to make sure you have the correct and most advantageous tool for jobs like sawing and planing.

They need to be very sharp,too,and lubricated if necessary,as well. Just think about 1/10 H.P.. What would you think of a Skil saw with that power rating?

[Trey Palmer]

Sounds like a 14" 14tpi saw is too small for the job. The sharksaws seen on google are pull saws and have impulse hardened teeth so they cannot be resharpened easily. Try getting a 4-5tpi rip saw. If its a bit dull you can re-sharpened it and learn a new skill.

I tried using a keystone timber saw to rip some 4x7 green cypress beams a few days ago and it worked well, but still took probably 20 minutes per board.

Thanks Dave. I'm sure the saw is too small for the job. I like the ease of keeping the pullsaw online, but the dust obscures the cut line and has to be blown off constantly. I brushed the dust out of the way the first time, then after stanching the bleeding and finding a band-aid decided that was not the way to go.

The bragging rights thing is definitely involved. I don't anticipate using tailed tools on any other part of the bench project.

[David Martino]

Trey-

As an advanced-newbie, my thoughts:

1) No, insane would be stopping before you finished. Completing the cut takes guts!

2) 45 minutes is a long time. Too long, unless you're in it for the exercise.

3) It sounds like you have the wrong saw for the job... too short, and too fine at 14tpi, and too crosscut. If it's one of those contractor saws with impulse hardened teeth, they're pretty crude for any job and not made for what you're doing. You have several options.

4) Use a circular (or other powered) saw. No harm unless you've taken a vow of some kind. Lots of hand tool users turn to spinning motors for stock prep and anything else inconvenient. (Almost all my lighting is electron driven, for instance.) Even Chris Schwarz says so:

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com...+Sawbench.aspx

5) Find a handsaw made for the job. New or old, it should be more like 28" long, filed rip, and closer to 5 tpi. Either option (new/old) sounds you down different lanes, each pleasant in its own way.

6) New: Seems there are only two qualities of saw out there: lousy - anything you find at most hardware stores or mass manufactured - and superior (Wenzloff, Lie-Nielsen, not sure if any of the other hand saw gurus are making full-sized saws?). There's no middle ground. And the ones worth buying can be $$$ for someone just starting out. Worth every penny IMEHOP, but a lotta pennies. If you got 'em, this is the quickest way to get sawing. Especially because it will come properly sharpened and set.

7) Vintage: Before powered saws every cut made in a house or ship or newly constructed donut factory was sawn by hand. Hence, hand saws were plentiful, sold by the dozen in fact. Sharpened frequently, used up, replaced. Quality from major suppliers was generally very high - people made their living with these things. So there are a gajillion old saws floating out there, in garage sales, ebay etc. Disston, Atkins, Simonds and others. Many are rusty and need sharpening or other restoration. Which is a hobby in itself, if you want to learn the arts. Plenty of info on this forum, the above cited Mr. Schwarz, vintagesaws.com, and elsewhere to get you started. If OTOH you want a tool ready to use, my advice would be to keep an eye on the classifieds here, or post a wanted to buy message. The learning curve on sharpening/restoring can be long, and you won't know when you're there without a standard to compare to. If you buy a properly tuned/sharpened D-8 or other rip (they're pretty common) from one of the kind gentlemen or ladies around here, you'll be sawing in no time, and will also learn how a good saw works.

Good luck,

Dave

[Rick Markham]

Ripping long boards by hand is not my cup of tea personally, Heck I don't even enjoy crosscutting wide boards. No shame in using a circular saw... Mad props for sticking with the board for 45 mins! I love my handtools, and the experience I get from using them... I personally find very little pleasure in ripping with a handsaw. I cheat... Festool or Tablesaw depending on the size of the board in question. If ya do continue by hand... definitely a rip saw (crosscut saws make lousy rip saws, rip saws can be respectable at crosscutting) and do yourself a favor and get a big box of Snickers bars