Front Door

[John Pope]

Hello everyone,

I would like to share a project I'm working on for a client.
The door is built out of spanish cedar, with 1/2" tenons two inches
long. Here's a few pics of my progress to this point.

[John Pope]

Here's one more picture...

[John Thompson]

Solid with M & T's.. I saw one recently that was constructed using none other than biscuits. haha

[Van Huskey]

Thats a nice solid door! How do you plan to finish it?

[Mike Davis NC]

Most of the old doors I have seen were either wedged through tenons or pegged tenons that looked to be much deeper that 2 inches. There is a lot of stress on a door.

[Sam Layton]

Hi John,

Welcome to the creek. That is one good looking door. I would also like to know what type of finish you are going to use. Are you going to build the jamb as well?

Great job, Sam

[lowell holmes]

John,
I'm planning a new door for my house. I never considered spanish cedar for a door. Is the wood a soft wood? How does it compare with Fir?

I was thinking of using qs white oak, butI dread the weight. That old white oak hurts if you drop a board on your finger. It's not a friendly wood.

Can you talk about the considerations you used when selecting the wood?

Your door is beautiful.

[Peter Quinn]

Nice looking door John. Thanks for the pics. I'm working on one myself for a neighbor, mostly glass, African mahogany frame. I'll try to post pics when its done. I love to see beautiful doors!

That tenon issue is tricky. I was taught that 2/3 the width of the stiles makes a stout tenon, so for my door with 5" stiles I used 6" loose tenons with 3 1/4" going into the stiles. Frankly I think 2" strong enough, but you go with what you were taught. I doubt either of us out lives the door either way!

[Bret Duffin]

I was a door builder in one of my previous lives and many a door I built. IMHO you got the joinery just right. 2" tenons are just about right. Plenty of surface glue holding area and not too deep.

Exterior doors are subect to a lot of wood movement. With too wide of a tenon it is subject to too much movement of the stiles arcoss the width tenon which can actually lead to joint failure.

Through tenons are a definate no-no on door stiles IMHO as the tenon will eventuallly stick proud of the door edge causing fit problems.

A very clean, well built door in my opinion.

Bret

[Rob Woodman]

I was a door builder in one of my previous lives and many a door I built. IMHO you got the joinery just right. 2" tenons are just about right. Plenty of surface glue holding area and not too deep.

Exterior doors are subect to a lot of wood movement. With too wide of a tenon it is subject to too much movement of the stiles arcoss the width tenon which can actually lead to joint failure.

Through tenons are a definate no-no on door stiles IMHO as the tenon will eventuallly stick proud of the door edge causing fit problems.

A very clean, well built door in my opinion.

Bret

How? If the rails are made the right length to start with the only way they can protrude "eventually" is if the stiles shrink. Thus the rails remain the same width as fitted. Then the cause is poor seasoning or finishing/lack of decoration maintenance.
Most doors I make are through mortise and tenon and wedged, even the cabinet doors on two cruising barges for the French canals, not had a problem yet!
As I don't believe in reincarnation, I am still doing as I was taught 27 years later with no ill effects.
With respect, Rob.

[Bret Duffin]

How? If the rails are made the right length to start with the only way they can protrude "eventually" is if the stiles shrink. Thus the rails remain the same width as fitted. Then the cause is poor seasoning or finishing/lack of decoration maintenance.
Most doors I make are through mortise and tenon and wedged, even the cabinet doors on two cruising barges for the French canals, not had a problem yet!
As I don't believe in reincarnation, I am still doing as I was taught 27 years later with no ill effects.
With respect, Rob.

Rob, Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers. "Previous life" is just a figure of speech meaning many years ago.

The stiles shrinking is exactly my concern with through mortises. It's arguable that a through tenon might hold the stile together if it splits but otherwise I see no real advantage to the longer tenon. To avoid splitting stiles I usually laminated my them, flat ways, so any visable seam would only show on the edge of the door.

Not right or wrong, just my way of doing things. I have seen the protruding through motises before but only on very old dilapidated doors.

Best regards, Bret

[Larry Edgerton]

I have built them both ways and had no problem with either. If I had to bet on which one was stronger in a breaking test I would bet on the short tenons, but either is good enough.

I did the through/wedged tenons at the customers request, he liked the look on the edge of the Fir door. There is however a pronounced movement as the door moves through the seasons. The tenon is a slight bit proud in the dry of winter and in just a hair in the humid summer. Not enough to be a problem, but it does move. Wood is like that...

I usually do around 2" with blind wedges, and West System.

[Harlan Barnhart]

With too wide of a tenon it is subject to too much movement of the stiles arcoss the width tenon which can actually lead to joint failure.

Very interesting Bret. I am in the middle of a set of QS white oak exterior doors with a very wide bottom stile (17"). I have been thinking of how to handle the expansion/contraction across the width of that stile. I have two tenons (2 1/2" long, 3 1/2" wide) on each end. I am think of gluing/pinning the bottom tenon and allowing the top to "float". There is a large glass panel in center with applied mouldings inside and out so the expansion could be hid under the bottom moulding. Opinions?

[Bret Duffin]

Very interesting Bret. I am in the middle of a set of QS white oak exterior doors with a very wide bottom stile (17"). I have been thinking of how to handle the expansion/contraction across the width of that stile. I have two tenons (2 1/2" long, 3 1/2" wide) on each end. I am think of gluing/pinning the bottom tenon and allowing the top to "float". There is a large glass panel in center with applied mouldings inside and out so the expansion could be hid under the bottom moulding. Opinions?

Your method sounds good to me but with a rail of that width I wouldn't glue the upper tenon at all.

I used to use a powerful shaper and power feed to assist in door building. When building a cope and pattern raised panel door I would use 1/2" x 4" dowels @ 2- 4" o.c. to hold the joints together. On wide rails like yours I would use three or so dowels held to the center or on edge or the other.

Sounds like a nice project you are working on.

enjoy,

Bret

[John Pope]

Sorry guys, been busy and haven't visited in a while...

John,
I'm planning a new door for my house. I never considered spanish cedar for a door. Is the wood a soft wood? How does it compare with Fir?

I was thinking of using qs white oak, butI dread the weight. That old white oak hurts if you drop a board on your finger. It's not a friendly wood.

Can you talk about the considerations you used when selecting the wood?

Your door is beautiful.

Not my choice of wood, although it does smell very nice. The architect that
designed the door called for Spanish Cedar. It is a bit on the soft side, so you have to careful. I would prefer QSWO, that's my favorite.

The owner has decided to go with a darker stain finish. I can't wait to see it
myself. I will take pictures of the door when it's installed.

I put a 1/2" square peg thru the final joint to insure longevity, but it didn't stand out the way I wanted, so I added a 1" square QSWO end grain to make contrast.

I borrowed my dad's 1971 Craftsman shaper and found a shaper bit that fit
the profile drawn.

Here's a few final pics...


Door3 by PaulPopeIII, on Flickr




Door2 by PaulPopeIII, on Flickr


Thanks again everyone for your comments.