I'm about done with WB Lacquer

[Russell Tribby]

I've been using WB Lacquer for about the last year and a half. While it's usually been Target Coatings products that I've used I did pick up some of Valspar's WB lacquer this summer. I've never really been satisfied with the results but this last job may have been my breaking point. I finished up a whole house job a couple of weeks ago and had to remake a couple of the doors. The stain was custom matched my SW. One of the pictures below shows the door sample that the stain was matched to, a piece of trim that was stained and then sprayed with the pre-cat lacquer and then the replacement door I made underneath all of that. The trim piece and the replacement door were both stained with the same product. However, the replacement door was sprayed with the WB lacquer. The discoloration between the two is unmistakable.
It's hard to tell from the picture but the replacement door also looked "cloudy" (my wife's description - and if she notices something like that then it's bad) as well. I had to sand down and start from scratch.
I found out this summer that if I don't go over the stain with some shellac before I apply the wb lacquer then the "cloudy" aspect is terrible.
I had to use some tinted pre-cat lacquer this summer for a small job and the difference between it and the wb lacquer I have been using was night and day. The smoothness of the finish with the pre-cat was twice what I was used to with the wb.
I've really tried to stick it out with the wb products but it has been an exercise in frustration. I've ended up spending way too much time and money over the last year having to fix finishes, come up with an alternative solution or just completely redo everything.
I do love the fact that I can clean up after the wb products with just water and I like the idea that they are better for the environment. It's just really disappointing that I haven't been able to get the results that I would expect to get.

[Rob Cunningham]

The cloudiness is most likely from the stain migrating up into the WB lacquer. I use mostly dyes,but always seal in the dye with shellac before applying EM6000 . EM6000 will also get cloudy if you apply it too thickly. I've always had good off the gun results as far as how smoothly it layed out.
Another WB finish that I've had good success with is FUHR 255. It's a little more amber color than the EM6000, but sprays well and has a nice smooth feel to it when dry. I don't know what to tell you about the color variations except that each finish is going to give a different look.

[Russell Tribby]

Thanks Rob. This is what has been so frustrating for me - I've tried to find that happy medium of putting down enough to get a smooth finish vs. laying down too much and having it look cloudy. I sealed that door with shellac so I can't imagine the stain bleeding into the lacquer. I'll look into the Fuhr.

[Howard Acheson]

From you pictures, I would bet on too thick a film being applied. When waterborne is put on too thick, a sort of bluish haze results.

[Russell Tribby]

Thanks Howard. It's been really frustrating trying to figure out how much is too much. If I don't lay enough down then I don't get a smooth finish. Too much and.....well you see the results I guess.

[Tony Bilello]

Probably 95% of everything finished professionally will have been finished with Nitro-cell lacquer on the cheap end and Pre-cat on the better end. Conv. Varnish at the higher end but used mostly on table tops. The best way to match an existing finish is with similar products.

[Jay Brewer]

I would almost bet the problem is to thick of coats, or not letting each coat completly dry before appling the next coat.

I really do fill your pain, I have tried for years to use WB ( probably around 75 gallons ) with less than perfect results. I think the problem with the Target 6000 is it is just to thin, and takes to many coats to get a nice SMOOTH finish.

I do have some hope, a local distriutor of ML Campell gave me a sample of the Auqulente WB, I havent got to try it to much, I sprayed a scrap board and it had full coverage and was smooth with 2 coats, sanding after the first. With the Target I would spray 2 coats, sand and spray the last coat.

I hope to use the ML stuff on some sample doors soon. I really am spoiled with the easy clean up of the WB.

By the way, I like the look of the top door, you do nice work.

[Russell Tribby]

I would almost bet the problem is to thick of coats, or not letting each coat completly dry before appling the next coat.

I really do fill your pain, I have tried for years to use WB ( probably around 75 gallons ) with less than perfect results. I think the problem with the Target 6000 is it is just to thin, and takes to many coats to get a nice SMOOTH finish.

I do have some hope, a local distriutor of ML Campell gave me a sample of the Auqulente WB, I havent got to try it to much, I sprayed a scrap board and it had full coverage and was smooth with 2 coats, sanding after the first. With the Target I would spray 2 coats, sand and spray the last coat.

I hope to use the ML stuff on some sample doors soon. I really am spoiled with the easy clean up of the WB.

By the way, I like the look of the top door, you do nice work.

Amen to that Jay. I am not looking forward to clean up with the solvent based stuff. I've had the same experience with Target's 6000. I just mentioned to my wife the other day "It shouldn't take three coats to get a finish like this." And this was with a seal coat of shellac over the stain. I'll see if I can find a local distributor for ML Campbell.

[Jim Becker]

Aside from the potential thick coat issue mentioned, you need to keep in mind that water borne products have a different "color" than solvent based products. You're not going to get the same result if you shoot each over the same stain/dye without some adjustments.

Acrylics are not the same as solvent based lacquer. If you are going to match color, you have to do the whole finishing regimen to make the match and it may/will require adjustment to your stain/dye and all other steps. Nature of the beast. In fact, the brand and "model" of finish will also affect this...even if you had different products of the same general type.

[Joe Chritz]

I have never gotten great results with only two coats on most woods with EM6000.

Generally it is stain (or dye), sealcoat of well.. sealcoat, two finish coats EM6000. Great results nearly every time.

It does require a third time through.

Every finish has pros and cons. The pros of not using solvent base finish far outweigh the cons for me. If I already had a suitable spray booth for solvent base it likely would not.

Joe

[Jeff Monson]

Have you though about trying the Sherwin Williams water based laquer?? I have had similar problems with em6000, and I swore off water based laquer. I was at my local sw store getting some more precat when the owner talked me into some aqua chem, I love this product. It dries clear even if I happen to get a little heavy in tight spots. Its worth a try, for me its way easier to work with than the em6000, but thats just me!