The things I have said are to protect fellow creekers. The question here is are there two craftsmen involved here?
Member
The things I have said are to protect fellow creekers. The question here is are there two craftsmen involved here?
Member
David,your point is very true. This is why I'm not taking orders. I do custom work for a very limited few. Too many years of making stuff under deadlines,last minute orders from big shots who haven't the sense to give decent notice time,etc. I have lots of aches and pains and disabilities,and I've paid my dues.
Now,I want to do what I want to do. If I decide to sell something,I'll put it up for sale. It will be what I want to make,and how I want to make it,not a museum reproduction like I had to make for years,unless it is something so beautiful I just had to have one.
Raney,your remark about Consumer Reports is weak. They are very well known for being free of bias. When I read a report about a gun from "American Rifleman",I'll never see a gun they didn't like. Why? were they given a free gun? And,plenty of their guns are VERY UGLY,and made very stupidly.
Last edited by george wilson; 09-08-2010 at 9:55 PM.
Member
The paramount value of a site like sawmill creek is people like George Wilson willing to share their wisdom and experience. If George wants to give an opinion on any tool or toolmaker, you bet your a** I'm going to listen.
Moderator
I'm happy to see that people rethought their posts and deleted them as inflammatory. People are behaving fairly well on this thread, but let me make a small warning. If you stick to the facts or alternately state that,"this is my opinion" you are on solid ground if things are kept polite. What I always worry about are statements that are careless and can be considered libelous should the subject of this thread show up and chose to read it.
Dave Anderson
Chester, NH
Member
Back in the day when I first got back into woodworking I found a vendor with a tool list on the web listing a thumb hole rip D100 IIRC for less than $50.00 . I watched the site for months before I emailed the vendor asking how to pay. ( I should add that I have had spectacular service from old tool vendors) Long story short when I got a return email from the seller he stated the saw was listed at the wrong price and wanted an extra $50.00 or $75.00 to ship the saw.
I of course I declined and bought a fine saw from Sandy Moss. I asked all of my woodworking friends (and sellers) what they thought of this situation. To a man they said they would have honored the listing. The saw stayed listed until I stopped watching the site. Move on, it's easier on the constitution.
Joe
Member
I am aware that things should be labeled "My opinion." Which is why I've stated such.
I have not said anything about how the saws WORK,just how their aesthetics look to me. I wonder if Chris Schwarz has tried many .015" dovetail saws. The most popular ones we made were .015. A lot of makers seem disinclined to make .015" blades. I think they're afraid of people kinking the thinner blades.
The thin .015" blades certainly WILL saw easier than a thicker one,by a marked amount. You are removing less wood. I'd like to see LN and some others offer a .015" saw.
Last edited by george wilson; 09-09-2010 at 2:32 PM.
Member
Oh, yes, he's tried them, George. See his blog posting:
http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com...Thickness.aspx
Member
George, I appreciated your comments here. I can't imagine anyone more qualified to render such opinions.
I like my Gramercy's DT saw .018" plate - as it is nicely thin, but still seems plenty robust. I've used an old saw with a minor what I'd call bow (as opposed to severe kink) along a couple inches of its length and was surprised how little it seemed to matter to the saw - that is, the saw still seemed to cut and track well - perhaps because two thirds of its length was straight?
Member
I know he's tried the Lunn saws. I saw the write up.
About the Lunn dovetail saw,I would like it just fine WITHOUT the engraving,and the little scroll on the handle. I could live with the scroll,but would like it better without that detail. The work is carefully done,and the handle shape of the dovetail is very nice. It's the 'extras" like engraving I do not like ON THIS SAW. I think it is a step in the right direction if he stops offering those extras.
Re:the post above about Chris Schwarz's "kinked" dovetail saw; It isn't kinked. To me,a kink is sharp edged. The saw blade has slipped a bit in the saw back. All he needs to do to make it straight is to clamp the front edge of the saw blade in a vise,and tap the back of the saw towards the handle. It will pull the blade dead straight again. I have bought saws cheap that were like that. My closed handle Groves was like that. Took a few seconds to jerk it straight.
If the blade s going to slip loose,a little bead of Loctite applied where the blade enters the back,and wiped right off,will prevent it from happening again.
Thank you,Sean. I'm not the greatest saw expert,but I do have a good sense of aesthetics and design.
Last edited by george wilson; 09-09-2010 at 3:12 PM.
Contributor
Taking this story at face value, it seems to be a clear case of a tool maker backing out of a deal fairly made - I'd be angry too, and would walk away from the dealer quickly. (Which is easy for me to say, as I've never liked the Eccentric Tools design aesthetic either). There are a couple of things about the original post that bother me, though:
Because we haven't seen the original email that you sent, George, we can't judge whether your email was "terse, although polite." Since we're reading about this with only your side represented, we should certainly hold some reservation on the matter. After all, it was sufficient in causing Andrew to end the business relationship; maybe he was seeking an excuse to do that, or maybe your message to him gave him cause.Originally Posted by George Beck
This was a deal made between 2 men: you and Andrew Lunn. Why in the world would you hold outside parties in contempt now that the deal went sour?
Mark Maleski
Guest
I did notice in Chris's blog that there is no link to eccentric toolworks.
I don't know if there ever was, but his blog listing is not short.
Keep in mind when Chris touted the saw, it was somewhere in the $185-$200 range, and I recall getting a lukewarm feeling from Chris's text after the price increase (like that's what he felt as conveyed through the text, not that I get a lukewarm feeling reading his blog). My recollection is sometimes like a kaleidoscope, but that's what I recall at least.
Chris is in sort of a thankless position. If he says something nice about tools (which can pretty much ruin the chance of getting something that's low production at a good price) and then the maker goes and doubles or triples the price, he's sort of stuck. I think he takes the high road, and who knows what his opinion is on this one, anyway. I haven't seen him touting a simple dovetail saw with a few artistic elements and a domestic hardwood handle for $500 as one of the true bargains to be had. I do recall him saying that it's got some extras in it and it's a nice saw, but that's likely true.
Member
Has Chris weighed in on Cosman's corian handled saw?
Guest
Not sure, but he does have his blog indexed by topic, and one of the topics is "saws". Can't be *that* many to sort through.
[OP]
Member
Well I will wrap this up as I just have nothing else to say on the matter. Mark, I was not obscene. I did question with so many changes and many new saws if the quality and make of the saw might also change. I stated I didn't think my business was important to him. I am also not claiming that he doesn't have the right to do what he did. I am saying I don't like it. I won't stand for it. The Woodworking in America trip would just be no fun for me now. I would want to stand by his booth and tell visitors "You don't really think you can get one of those do ya?" I just have no desire to read any recommendations from Popular Woodworking or their shows. I hope that will pass in the future. I think the biggest thing for me was such disappointment. I searched and researched this saw for 2 years. (I first saw it here by the way). When I read the multiple reviews and praise in Popular Woodworking I was more excited. As I said I went to the Indianapolis show specifically to meet Andrew Lunn and his saw. After a year of this is the deal, no this is the deal, no this is the deal I had just had it. I can be quite unreasonable especially when people do not keep a deal or request that I understand their situation with no consideration for mine. I think people should do what they say they are going to do. They do not have to, mind you. But I think they should and I don't want to have anything to do with people who do not or those who promote them. I am not asking anyone here to agree with me. Folks can think I am just a cranky old man. I have said all I have to say. I'm outta here.
George Beck
Fishers Laser Carvers
Member
From LN -- "Our newest Dovetail Saw has a .015" saw plate" How's that for service!
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