No Soup for You

[George Beck]

I have just been through one of the worst experiences I have ever had in woodworking. Almost two years ago I saw the saws of Andrew Lunn. I thought they were the best I had ever seen. I went to the Woodworking in America conference in Berea and tried every saw there. They were all good but I decided to pursue the Lunn saw. When I read about the saws in Popular Woodworking and saw the $250 price (twice the price of any other saw at the time), I decided to check this out. I was so excited when the Lie-Nielsen show came to Indianapolis and saw that Eccentric tools was there, I jumped at the chance to test the saw. It was great and Andrew was a nice fellow so I ordered 2 saws. I was told the price would not be $250 but was now $375. That gave me pause but I decided to go ahead. I was also informed that the fancy scalloped backs and engravings I liked were also no longer being done. I was disappointed but I went ahead. I was then told to wait 14 months for the saws, that seemed unreasonable but I agreed and offered to pay a deposit which Andrew refused. Eccentric tools announced 2 months later that Andrew was suspending orders to get caught up with back orders. I contacted Andrew who assured me that mine was one of the back orders. Then he announced a price increase to $500 in April. I had set aside money so I was afraid I might have to just settle for one saw. I wrote Andrew who assured me that my order was not affected by the price increase. He did not say I hope so. He said inequitably "NO". I continued to hold onto the money I set aside for this purchase, least I forget. So I have been waiting patiently for a little under a year. I was very excited to see an email from Andrew just before Labor Day hoping it was news about my saws. I was still hoping for Christmas which would be 14 months. Well the email was a mass mailing telling me how the saws were dreadfully under priced and he could not make a livable wage and all orders would only be done at the new price. I may have over reacted but it really pissed me off. I wrote a terse, although polite, email to Andrew questioning this action that he had specifically told me he would not do and this caused me to question if the quality and craftsmanship of the saw might have a change of heart as well and that I was very upset. Well, Andrew wrote me back saying he was sorry I felt the need to lash out at him and this "ends our business relationship". So I guess I cannot ever have one of these saws at whatever price and received the "No Soup for You!" response. I don't recall ever being so upset over anything with woodworking before. It is one thing if someone doesn't know how to run a business. I understand price increases and the difficulty in pricing one's work. I do not understand representing something as one thing and then changing terms after so much time. I also don't understand Not doing what you say you will do. I am sure I rustled Andrews feathers, but this was a clear renege. Folks can run their business any way they want, but I feel I am within my rights to cry foul. I never said I wouldn't pay the higher price I just objected to being told one thing and then reversed. I have lost patience with these boutique vendors who show one thing and then change their minds. I have been through that with Bridge City. Oh well, nothing I can do but suffer for not being willing to stay quiet while people treat me however they want. I will not be attending Woodworking in America and I will be canceling my subscription to Popular Woodworking and those who posture these guys next to reputable people like Lie-Nielsen, Tools for Working Wood and Ron Hock which gives the public the impression it is the same. I am just a woodworker. I am not a blogger, or a writer, or a self proclaimed expert. I just make things for folks out of wood. Buyer beware or no soup for you!

[Sean Hughto]

Mr. Lunn's behavior was very unprofessional. You are justified in your response.

I've never dealt with Bridge City or Lunn. I will say, however, that every other boutique maker of handtools that I have dealt with have been nothing short of excellent from Woodjoy to Blue Spruce to Bad Axe to various knife makers and on and on. I'm a strong believer in supporting these boutique folks. My experiences have been completely and totally great and satisfying. Do not let Lunn's poor business practices color your view of all boutiques.

Also, there are lots of great saws out there. Wenzloff, Gramercy, LN, Bad Axe, etc. etc. You don't need Lunn's.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I have to agree with Sean.

We all assume that the poster is telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth . . . if so, I'd never deal with Lunn either.

That said, I've seen posts like this before and when the other side is aired, it shades the complete story, well, a bit more completely.

If what you say happened in your case did in fact happen just that way, he won't be in business long; not just because he can't command the price he wants, but because his word is worthless.

In this (woodworking) very specific hobby (for most) that type of reputation is a quick death for your business.

Contrast with Rob Lee, whose business, reputation and customer service is second to none ... (no affiliation, just an example and a VERY satisfied repeat, repeat, repeat customer.)

[George Beck]

I agree Sean. I have support these folks too. I think I bought the first Bridge City Square and I was one of Ron Hock's very first customers. I should have bought the Wenzloff saw. I did buy a Grammercy saw. But that is my point, When you position someone in Mike's booth or next to Ron Hock it gives the impression that all are the same. Sadly, not the case. It is really a shame Andrew's saws are really excellent saws. I have just never been blacklisted before.

[Jonathan McCullough]

Hmm. I'm in the midst of my own saw project now and kind of sympathize with anyone making these by hand. But for enough money, it might be okay. So here's a deal George: Send me $800, the pictures of the saws you wanted, and their specifications, and I'll make them for you within a reasonable amount of time. I'll post the progress here on Sawmill creek to show what I did and how I did it. Deal?

[Jerome Hanby]

I am in no way defending how you were treated. One thing I noticed way back when I was doing technical support over the phone is that I had the irrational tendency to be thinking "how many time do I have to tell you that you have to supply DTR or the modem will not auto-answer". I completely realized that it was 10,000 different people with the same problem, not one person repeating the same error 10,000 times, but that wasn't how it felt. I wonder if you got the proverbial backhand slap because other customers had been heaping abuse on him. Of course from your narrative, he has a little abuse coming...

[George Beck]

I would be fine with that Jonathan so long as the price did not become $1,000 before delivery. As to the truth, I can only say the truth as I know it. I have run business for 35 years and I am currently a business owner. I understand the difficulty in making things by hand and making money. I do not have any disagreement with the price. But I also know that if you change your policy, customers may object and often do. People can run their business any way they please. They raise prices whenever they want. They can decide not to honor backorders if they wish. However, as a customer I have every right to cry foul and state my dissatisfaction. I might also state, under oath, that wrote another email to Andrew apologizing if I had stated my case too harshly, but reiterating my complaint which is I was told one thing and then that was reversed. I was fully expecting a "Sorry that your upset and I regret that prices have risen etc. etc." I was not expecting a "don't lash out at me go away!" I also freely admit, I am pretty jazzed up about this and it is not good for me. I am a heart attack patient. Anyway, sorry about the rant, I was made to feel unimportant, thats all.

[bob blakeborough]

You are only as good as your word in business... If a promise was made, a promise should be kept at all reasonable costs. If a serious error was made during quoting and caught and corrected early it is one thing, but if someone has verified, reverified, and after over a year of communication and patience been told that they now going to have to pay more because the business feels that they just aren't making enough profit, well that is completely another story...

[Mike Zilis]

George,

I'm not sure this will make you feel better, but let me relate my own experience. I've been a drummer most of my life. I've bought and sold well over 100 individual drums and have even built a few myself. As woodworking seems to be experiencing a custom built hand tool renaissance, drum building went through a similar renaissance. There were several notable drum builders that created quite a buzz at drum shows and in national magazines with spectacular work. A few ended up as Lunn seems to have with too many orders and no way to realistically fill them. In my story, the sad fact is that many people lost their deposits all together as the builder went out of business or disappeared altogether. It's interesting to me that this same story has repeated itself in two industries.

I'm glad you didn't lose any money and I understand the frustration and anger you feel about this situation. It must be true that immense talent at crafting an instrument (or a tool) in no way translates to automatically being able to make a successful business out of it.

About the only thing I disagree with you on is how you are extrapolating your experience into blame/accountability to Popular Woodworking Magazine and Woodworking In America. This seems completely unreasonable.

If you had bought one of the Toyota cars that had accelerator problems would you blame the Chicago Auto Show, the television broadcasters that played their commercials or the magazines that ran their advertisements?

Still, I hope you continue to give small independent custom tool builders the opportunity to earn your future business.

Best of luck,

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

People can run their business any way they please.

When this was first scanned by my eyes, it looked like this:

People can ruin their business any way they please.

Funny just one letter different that happens to be an "I".

As in:
"I am not making enough profit."
"I don't need to satisfy my customers, my product is so great they will jump through hoops for me."
"I love back orders, it validates my business!"

And so on.

My mind just can not get wrapped around the idea that a saw can be worth that much. It is beyond my current means to justify a saw that costs $50 to $200, let alone a higher price. I have used some of the saws at the tool shows and they are fine saws. I have inexpensive rehabbed saws in my shop that cut just as true.

But if people are willing to spend so handsomely for a saw, maybe I should start making a few to supplement my income.

jim

[Jonathan McCullough]

I think there’s an “old saw” machinists used to say: “first you get good, then you get fast, then you get cranky.” Andrew Lunn’s first saws were featured on WK Fine Tools journal as a guy who just made some saws in his basement for the fun of it. I think someone contacted him asking for a saw and soon he started adding up the dollars, thinking, “this could add up to a boat payment!” Well one thing led up to another, and now all this. I sympathize with the guy, I really do, and I’ve been seeing some griping about not only him but other toolmakers who are behind on their orders. I have an order in for something from someone else I just don’t have the tools to make myself, that has been languishing since March I think. Maybe April. I’ve lost count. But I can’t hold it against anyone who makes tools for a living. I don’t know how the Wenzloffs do what they do at that, or any price. Lunn’s saw handles are really, really extraordinarily detailed and if anything, much more time consuming.

And Rob Lee and Lie Nielsen, they are blessed saints, dealing with the public the way they do. We should throw all the business we can toward them whenever someone new needs advice on some new hand tools, just as karma for what they’ve suffered from the inexperienced, or from ingrates with ridiculous expectations of the tools.

It does appear that Lunn ran afoul of the extraordinarily high generally accepted business practices for this industry. But it’s kind of funny isn’t it, that we would probably pay him with a credit card that can change the terms any time they want? And do? And never make mistakes that benefit you? I think it’s one of the interesting American cultural blind spots or contradictions that Lunn would be called on the carpet when there really is so much more going on around us these days that makes his transgression pale in comparison.

At any rate, I hope he learns from this and that he continues to practice his art in such a way that makes him and his customers happy. And George, if you’re serious, you can always PM me. If you do I’d be happy to document the build here on SMC.

[Dewald van Lamp]

Thanks for posting this.

I think your rant is justified on what I've read.

I'm awaiting the opposition reply.

I hope it is forthcoming...

[James Taglienti]

If a guy can't make a living selling backsaws for $500 a pop it makes me wonder where the money is going. Even after dropping the decoration (to me, 75% of the appeal of those saws) and jacking the price to that astronomical figure. He should be ashamed of himself for even asking $500 for a basic saw.

[Jerome Hanby]

If a guy can't make a living selling backsaws for $500 a pop it makes me wonder where the money is going. Even after dropping the decoration (to me, 75% of the appeal of those saws) and jacking the price to that astronomical figure. He should be ashamed of himself for even asking $500 for a basic saw.

I wonder if he doesn't really enjoy making the saws and has acquired such a backlog that he's trying to run off customers. If you are locked into a day job (for stability, insurance, whatever), I bet it could get down right depressing to have every second of free time you can generate swallowed. Making the first four or five saws would be a blast, number 200, not so much. He really should have eased into the business and just put saws up for bid as he finished them.

[Tony Shea]

It is such a great commodity to be able to rant to a bunch of WW's in order to clear your consiounce as well as keep a heads up to all of us who may have been planning a saw from the same fellow. I do feel terrible that Lunn is struggling to make good with his backorders and potentially his business. But there really is just no room to treat well paying customers who are willing to jump through so many hoops in order to believe they might recieve an item they've had their mind on for months. Trouble is that there are so many outfits out there that are producing a similar quality product and get nothing but praises while doing so. But I suppose this is the difference between businesses that succeed (ala Lie Nielsen, Wenzloff, etc.) and those that fail. IMO I think you lasted much longer than I would have and showed much patience and understanding, given the scenario is 100% truth. I think the point the price reached $375 I would have had a few civil words but may have agreed to wait. But then to hear the $375 price along with no fancy engravings and sloped back, I would have fallen off the wagon. Thanks for the post, was well worth the read.