No Soup for You

[Mark Maleski]

I am also not claiming that he doesn't have the right to do what he did.

Oh, I think you have a right to claim that. Like I said above, I would've walked away from the "deal" the moment the terms changed after the deal had been made.

Folks can think I am just a cranky old man. I have said all I have to say. I'm outta here.

You're not the only cranky old man on this board. . I hope you stick around.

[David Weaver]

My recollection is sometimes like a kaleidoscope, but that's what I recall at least.

Wow...me and my kaleidoscope memory - just noticed that I said on the PW blog when it was known that the saws went to $500 that Mr. Lunn can charge whatever he wants.

Which is true.

I probably wouldn't have offered support had I known he was changing prices on people who had already put orders in, though.

At least you didn't pay up front! My experience with a custom guitar maker was not quite the same because they were playing the games, but they had my money while they were doing it, too, in the form of a personal check cashed months before. They did assure me that they were working on the guitar and it was ready to go out the next week every time I called (for months and months after the original date they said they were targeting), and when I finally got the guitar, i found it has a flaw that makes it unsaleable, so I'm stuck with it.

[Tony Zaffuto]

As I've already posted, there are many other good saw makers out there. For instance I had Mike Wenzloff build me two half back saws and a Disston #16 (my favorite saw-my originals and Mike's). The orders took a long time, but Mike was a real gentleman throughout the process, honoring his original pricing and communicating. But Mike is building saws as a business.

[george wilson]

I deleted my wish to see LN make a .015" saw. just after I wrote it,I found out they already did. Good news.

[Marv Werner]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you.

[David Keller NC]

Sort of an interesting thread (just saw it today and read through the 4 pages). I don't have anything useful to add regarding Mr. Lunn that has not already been said. My own personal opinion is that you don't alter the charge on an order already taken, even if you are losing money by executing it at the agreed upon price, especially if you've taken an up-front deposit - the exception being if the customer significantly alters the original specifications. I've been the personal victim of this mistake many (too many) times when the cost of the required wood rises significantly in price and I badly under-estimate the amount of work that it takes to complete the piece.

Anyway, though, it would appear that Andrew is out of business for the interim (or perhaps permanantly) - his website address has been taken over by a phishing site.

[Ray Gardiner]

<snip>
Anyway, though, it would appear that Andrew is out of business for the interim (or perhaps permanantly) - his website address has been taken over by a phishing site.

Hi David,

Funny, I thought the same when I ended up at the wrong site, but no, he has a new site http://eccentrictoolworks.com/

A friend of mine makes guitars, and he is notoriously difficult to deal with, people wait for years to get a guitar, underneath it all he is a really nice guy, he's just a perfectionist and doesn't pull any punches when he doesn't like something. Diplomacy is not his strong suit. But his work is exceptional, and those who persevere always end up happy with the results.

Maybe that's the same situation we have here.

Regards
Ray

[Joe McMahon]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. ......

... It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient.....

A written statement is libelous when it (or in this case the scrivener) knows or should know it to be untrue and it damages the object of the libel. To merely report the gory details, notwithstanding the fact that they may injure the object of the piece, cannot be libel since truth is an affirmative defense to a petition for libel.

An example might be all that was written about Tiger Woods single car auto accident near his home. Surely the publicity has injured him since he lost numerous sponsors and a corresponding huge amount of income
not to mention scaring off prospective contracts. It would appear further that his play has fallen off significantly since the reported incident, yet there has been no lawsuit. One can only surmise that the reason for no retaliation by Woods is because of certain truths involved in the incident as reported.

Finally, I wholeheartedly endorse your summation regarding the dilatory effects that anger and grudge holding have on a person. I too had an order with Mr. Lunn, mine from July of 09. I too received the mass mailing informing me that my order was summarily canceled. Could I sue? Probably. Would I be successful? I believe so. Why then did I not pursue it? Because a man's word should be his bond. I will have no truck with a person who is not good for his word. If in fact Mr. Lunn is unable or unwilling to complete his agreement and perform his part of the agreement at what he now claims is a less than desired price, I will not put another nail in his coffin. His actions may well have done that already. In hard economic times, there are few takers for a $500 dovetail saw from a potentially unreliable source.

To be certain, he makes a lovely saw that is excellent in performance, but no saw- no tool, no object is that necessary that you deal with a person whom you feel has wronged you, nor should it cloud your outlook on others. To miss WIA because of the acts of one seller is decision you may come to regret. The facts as reported about the saw are true, his saws are very good and the reports saying so are, in my opinion accurate. Why kill the messenger?

[George Clark]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you.

Marve,

Welcome to the Creek.

I totally disagree with you. I believe Mr Beck has every right to vent his frustrations on this forum. I also don't think the truth is libelous. As you said you're not a lawyer. Are you a psychiatrist? I was involved is a custom frame shop with my wife for 28 years. Once we quoted a price, that was the price. If we made a math error we ate the error. About one of those meals is all it takes to to teach you check your math etc, etc. I believe every successful business person has learned that the customer really doesn't care about your problems, nor should they. The customer wants the product they purchased, at the price they agreed to, at the time promised and to be of the quality you're known for. It's really pretty simple.

Mr Beck was far more tolerent of Mr Lunn's devious business practices than I and a number of other Creekers would have been. I attended a seminar where Mr Lunn was one of the speakers. His manufacturing ideas were, in my opinion, a good bit different that the norm. The norm being four well respected, established hand tool manufacturers. Evidently his business practices are a bit far from the norm also.

George

[Paul Saffold]

I went to his website and invited Andrew to read this thread and make a comment. I think it only fair that he be given a chance to respond. There are often two (or more) sides to a story.

Paul

[george wilson]

There are many libelous(sp?) things said on forums. Like the punk who accused me of not having done the work I have posted. It was quickly deleted by the moderator,who has been in my shop. Am I going to pursue him in court clear to California? No,he's not worth it. Maybe it is sort of a compliment that he thinks my work is just too good to have been done by me.

I was going to suggest informing him. However,this thread may soon be locked if things get too hot.

[Bob Marino]

I am late in this game, but agree with the many like Joe M and George C, who find this type of behavior from the manufacturer unacceptable...to say the least. A man's word is his bond, and he hasn't kept it; changing prices and terms midstream is the quickest way to lose my business support...and the fact that you waiting the length of time you did, wow, way more patience than I would have.
Paul, yes, it's not a bad idea to have Mr. Lunn read and respond, but it looks like the OP's experience has been been echoed by Joe M.

Bob

[Jake Helmboldt]

Hello George,

I'm new here on Sawmill Creek. Was browsing around and your title "No Soup for You" caught my eye. I remember the Seinfeld episode.

I can understand your frustrations as a result of your experiences as you have so thoroughly described them. What I have a bit of a problem with is.... your going public with inflammatory rhetoric in an apparent attempt to do damage to someone who is trying to make a living with his craft. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm wondering, from a legal standpoint if what you have published could be considered libelous. You could very well be unintentionally effecting his livelihood. Mr. Lunn is new at being in business for himself. He has made some mistakes along the way. Good God man, who doesn't? I had my own business for many years before retiring and believe me, I made some pretty dumb mistakes. No business is easy. It appears from your post that you are not out any money. The situation between you and Mr. Lunn is just that and should not, in my opinion apply to anyone else. I suspect that if you were to give the man some slack and email him in a non-confrontational manner, you might be able to resolve any differences you may have with him. Keep in mind, having been in business for 35 years, as you say you have, you know how overwhelming things can get at certain times. It's a terrible thing to carry bad feelings around inside yourself. You are obviously very bothered by what has transpired between you and Mr. Lunn or you wouldn't have written in such detail about it. Plus the fact, you have decided to not attend the WIA. This is going to be your lose and will cause you to harbor all those negative thoughts for a long time. This is not a good thing for a heart patient. I'll bet that if you can bring yourself to a change of heart, so to speak, you just may very well turn things around and who knows, become best of friends with Mr. Lunn. If you are successful, it would be a wonderful thing for both of you.

Geore has been more than kind in his posts, continuing to state his appreciation for the quality of the saw and even saying Lunn has the right to do what he has done. There appears to be nothing malicious or misrepresented by George. In fact, if there is any legal breach it is on the part of Andrew Lunn. George has only stated his disatisfaction with the failure to make good on a deal. Mr. Lunn is in breach of contract and in some states a verbal agreement is considered a contract.

I personally think George has been too gracious, and for that reason I don't doubt his side of the story. It hasn't been a tirade to trash Lunn, but to vent his disappointment. And I certainly think it is worthwhile to let fellow woodworkers know of the potential problems if they deal with Lunn. It has been corroborated by at least one other person in this thread.

[Derek Cohen]

I seem to recall similar "testiness" in Mr. Lunn's response to some posts on Swartz's blog when the saws first hit the market (I know it got heated with the price increase from $250 to $350). I feel the OP has the right to be a bit burned since the price doubled, with features omitted with a placed order.

Many good saws on the market and many good saw guys out there to tweak what you buy into what you want. Maybe a new thin plate LN or Gramercy, tweaked by Daryl Weir or Mr. Bad Axe or Mike Wenzloff?

Hi Tony

The heated discussion was, in fact, a response to a review I wrote on the Eccentric Works carcass saw and the discussion that followed at Knots. I'd supply a link, but I know crosslinking is not generally permitted here (pity - sometimes it is very pertinent), so just do a Search on "Andrew Lunn". I find it interesting that it was written 15 months ago. It seems so much further back in time.

Link - perhaps it will be left in: http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fi...ks-carcase-saw

George (Beck, that is - there are a few Georges replying), for your information I am also blacklisted. That is, I emailed Andrew about 12 months ago to purchase a saw, but he did not reply. I believe that he chose not to reply.

With regard the work done and price offered by Andrew, I have stated in the past, and am not going to change my opinion, that he has every right to ask the price he believes his time is worth. Every person has that right. I also believe that many (most) custom toolmakers under charge for their work. When Andrew first raised his price from $160 to $250 my response was that he was still low. When the price got to $375 I stated that this was probably more realistic in terms of the time he expended on building a saw - but that it would take time for the buying public to come to terms with this. In fact, my knee-jerk reaction was to react emotionally as well - that is, the price was too high. My intellectual side dominates, however, and I still maintain that the price asked by Andrew is reasonable (if that is what he believes his time is worth constructing the saws as he does. It has little to do with whether others are prepared to pay what he asks. That is another matter altogether.

For reference, my review of the carcass saw: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...arcaseSaw.html

George (Wilson this time), the plainer style of saw is my preference as well. I have a few saws made by Mike Wenzloff that are just wonderful. The original Independence Tools dovetail saw (itself a copy of a classic design, and now copied by many others), and the LN (although it is a machine-made version of the IT) - all of these have a classic simplicity. Andrew Lunn makes a first class blade. It is a work of art and the reason I purchased the saw in the first place. I really enjoy using the carcass saw I have. I have issues with the shape of the handle - aesthetically, that is. It is too chunky and ornate for my taste. That is just a personal comment. Others love the design. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Vive la difference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Yes,Derek. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,but all opinions are not necessarily the correct ones.