Dovetails - are some humans just not able to make them?

[Dan Karachio]

If so, I think I may be one of them. I have my LN saw, I have my chisels, I have my Cosman DVD and marker guide... I have practiced. I have everything a 19th century craftsman would ever need to make the most beautiful dovetails, but mine are absolutely awful. Have your four year old attempt dovetails and you will get the picture. I will not show pictures, my shame is too great.

I want to do this, I want to master this, but are there people who lack the genes to pull this off? It's a little far away, but I am considering the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop's two day dovetail class, but what if I am so stupid and unskilled I sit there for two days while all my classmates make great dovetails and I continue to suck? For the same price as the course I can buy a jig, cop out and route my way to soulless evenly spaced dovetails and never see a nice thin pin in my life.

[Mark Salomon]

Don't give up. They just require lots and lots of practice. Where do you live? maybe a creeker who lives nearby and is comfortable with dovetails can spend an afternoon making you a little more comfortable with them. I'm in Sacramento.

[Steve Thomas]

It seems that way some times.
I had a student that couldn't cut to a line to save his life. then I read somewhere about some people having dominant hands and eyes that were different... I think it was Chris S.
He now leans a little further over his work and bingo! a straight line. first time too.

[Steve Thomas]

yep... gee it was three years ago.

[Adam Cherubini]

Dan,

Take the class and Mario or Alan will show you. I think it's a lot to ask of us to learn all these skills alone. This is certainly not our history. The guy in the 19th c was formally trained by a master craftsman who probably had 20 years of experience. You've assembled the tools. You have the desire. Complete the puzzle and go learn from the master.

Videos are good. Havng somebody watch you, correct your technique, and then watch you do that is worth every penny in my opinion.

Adam

[Stuart Tierney]

I don't know, but it's not inconceivable for a normally competent and coherent human being to be incapable of doing something that requires a modicum of skill to accomplish.

I've seen it before, not with dovetails, but some folks just don't get "it" without a heck of a lot of practice, and subsequently wasted materials.

Being a sparky, we had a coupe apprentices that just could not strip cable without making a hash of it. Damaged copper, cut core wires, strip too much or too little, etc, etc. Seems like an easy task, but still, plenty of folks can't do it.

(FWIW, it takes a decent sparky about a second to strip off a neat half inch of insulation on any cable that will fit in the jaws of their pliers, no damage to the inner copper wire.)

So, when we hit one of the kids who just couldn't manage it, they got put in the corner with a pair of pliers, a drum of cable and told not to come back until they could show us 20 perfectly stripped bits of cable, all done in a row.

Boring, painful and frustrating, but it solved the problem. It also gave said kid a LOT of confidence, and subsequent things they needed to do quickly, reliably and efficiently were attacked with gusto and usually done right after only a few tries.

So, get in there with a length or two of cheapo wood, 1/2" thick and 2" wide and make lots of single tail/socket dovetails until you get there.

If you can wangle it, having someone who can make a dovetail at will to watch over your shoulder can help.

Just making cuts on the line/either side/split and lots of them will help.

What I am saying I guess that breaking down things, practicing the heck out of them until they become second nature may prove to be the right medicine and skills/confidence will flow onto other 'difficult' operations.

(At least, I hope that's what will happen. I am one of those insidious and despised people who can do pretty much anything off the bat, first try and then do it again for good measure.)

What Steven says there is also true, and might be causing some troubles. I am right handed, left eye dominant.

I don't know if it's mentioned, but the way to find eye dominance is to take a CD, look through the hole at arms length and focus on a word. Then, keeping the hole centred over the word, bring it to your face.

Whichever eye the CD ends up on is your dominant eye. Apparently you can change eye dominance, but I haven't done that. When I tried I ended up getting eyes that can independently focus at will. Very useful to have one eye in a viewfinder focused on what's in there, the other eye tracking the world. Works with a rifle scope, works with a camera. Handy, but I'd rather have the right eye dominance at times...

Anyway, keep at it and do break down the steps until you get each one nailed down right. Once you get to the point where each step is consistently accomplished, it's no big step to a complete, neat and tight dovetail.

Good luck with it, and report back!

Stu.

[Don Dorn]

Actually, I find it a bit refreshing to find someone who tells the truth about his/her struggle toward accomplishing this task as opposed to the "this is my first" where they rival Klausz or Cosmans. Suppose it's possible, but certainly not common and I've always suspected that many of the "firsts" were not actually the first.

I agree with the others - it just takes practice. For me, I simply took a long piece and did one or two a day of singles until they fit well, then went to two and so on. Straight line cuts are important so practicing that will get you a long ways. You didn't say whether you are pins or tails first, but the Cosman reference and the skinny pins tells me you are doing tails first.

Having learned pins first, I can say that it was easier for me because it makes it easier to use it as a template and mark with a pencil ala Klausz. That said - I understand your draw to the skinny pins as I'm working at that too by doing it Cosmans way. For me, it's tougher but we can't give up. Use 1/2" wood that isn't too hard and get at it. Like others, I look forward to hearing of your success.

[George Beck]

My great uncle Walter was cabinet maker in the 20's and 30's. I used to play in his shop as a little boy. I was amazed that he made simple through dovetails mostly by eye. He would mark the location of each tail (usually with a template) lay the saw against his thumb and cut. It amazed me! I asked how he could do that. He explained that when he started they would have to cut dovetails for boxes of maybe 40 a day(thats 8-16 saw cuts per corner x 4 corners or as many as 2,000 saw cuts a day). This for several years. Well ya got good at it. Especially since in those days cabinet makers were paid by piece not by time worked so one had to be quick. I would have starved to death. When I learned dovetailing, which more appropriately was learning sawing, I would take a 6 in board and mark straight lines maybe an 1/8 apart and saw them down the line and to a line. I would then flip the board over and do the other end. I would then cut the lines off and do the exercise again. I did this every morning for probably 3 weeks. When I felt I could reasonably follow a line, I started over with angled cuts. I did this for probably 2 months, every morning just like exercise. I got pretty good at it.
Recently I completed a little hand dovetailed box and before I began, I went through my little exercise to practice my stroke. I don't cut dovetails everyday so things get rusty. My long winded rant is to make this point: Even though we have great tools these days and can duplicate or even improve on the tools of my great uncle, we don't work in the same conditions. The tools are better, the skills have to be developed. There was a reason Jack Nicklaus
hit 500 balls everyday. It takes practice, it takes patience, it takes a stubborn attitude. Of course, after so many saw cuts the saw was dull and needed sharpened, which is an entirely different set of skills to learn.
Keep the faith, you will get it.

[John Coloccia]

It's easier to mark skinny pins doing it pins first. Tails first you need a long knife to mark them.

re: everything else
Where do your dovetails go wrong? Are you not sawing properly? Is your saw wandering and you're getting a curved cut? Can't pare to a ling to save your life? Dull chisels crushing the wood? Don't know what straight up and down looks like?

Everything has a solution and a way of practicing to improve it, but you have to know what's going wrong first. My suggestion is this: do you have a router and a dovetail jig? Take a board and make, say, the pins. That's you're master board. Now take another board and make tails to match. After you've made the tails, and they don't fit, take it over to the dovetail jig and run the router through it with the power OFF. That's a nice guide that will show you exactly where all the problems are and where you need to concentrate. You can sit there and keep make tail, after tail, after tail until you get it right. There's no reason to keep cutting pins AND tails as that's just a waste of time and materials.

The idea is to get at least half the joint to start fitting. Once you get to that point, I almost guarantee that when you make the full joint, it will either fit or you'll be able to tell immediately where it's going wrong.

Just my opinion.

[Dan Karachio]

Thanks everyone. My problems are a little sloppiness on just about every thing. I was trying to be a little funny and had a bad day yesterday. I may not be chronically challenged here. I think what I have been doing is analogous to trying to practice/play a Bach piece before I have learned my scales. Meaning, I never spent time just cutting lines and singles. Actually, I had cut a single or two a while back and one was pretty good, but then I jumped right to a 5" board and trying to make nice triples with thin pins. Tails first, pins first, I honestly don't care and like all the sharpening information out here, the overflow of information and opinion is enough to drive a newbie nuts - it doesn't help. I'll try both ways on my singles and whichever works for me will be my preferred method.

So, thanks for sending me to the chalkboard to write out the alphabet 1000 times. I am sure this is exactly what I need! Then I will take that class.

P.S. Don, if we find proof that some of these "my first dovetails" are really not, can we start a class action suit for pain and suffering? :-)

[Zach England]

Try being visually impaired and doing it...very frustrating.

[John Shuk]

The ability to do some simple things does escape certain people. I'm one of them. Practice probably won't hurt though.
I hate when I suck at things....I do though.

[Tom Scott]

Practice sawing and then go take a class. Everyone needs the practice to get good. As far as learning what to do, different people learn differently. For some, reading about it is enough. For others, watching a video is sufficient. And there are the hands-on people that learn by doing. Also, there is no real substitute for seeing someone do it in person, explaining as they go, and then pointing out tricks and subtleties to help you...even if you think you know.

[Jerome Hanby]

If so, I think I may be one of them. I have my LN saw, I have my chisels, I have my Cosman DVD and marker guide... I have practiced. I have everything a 19th century craftsman would ever need to make the most beautiful dovetails, but mine are absolutely awful. Have your four year old attempt dovetails and you will get the picture. I will not show pictures, my shame is too great.

I want to do this, I want to master this, but are there people who lack the genes to pull this off? It's a little far away, but I am considering the Philadelphia Furniture Workshop's two day dovetail class, but what if I am so stupid and unskilled I sit there for two days while all my classmates make great dovetails and I continue to suck? For the same price as the course I can buy a jig, cop out and route my way to soulless evenly spaced dovetails and never see a nice thin pin in my life.

Your post was written in well formed English, no words misspelled, and you conveyed your meaning clearly and succinctly. My conclusion is you are not dumb. Since I have similar "problems", I can only conclude that problems with dovetails must denote mental and genetic superiority!

[bob blakeborough]

It seems that way some times.
I had a student that couldn't cut to a line to save his life. then I read somewhere about some people having dominant hands and eyes that were different... I think it was Chris S.
He now leans a little further over his work and bingo! a straight line. first time too.

Try being visually impaired and doing it...very frustrating.

Well that explains a bit for me I think... I am right handed, but also blind in my right eye. I find I am always leaning right when I am praticing to try and use my left eye. Maybe I am going to have to try and learn how to saw left handed now. When I was a kid I taught myself to shoot a rifle left handed because I couldn't sight right handed, and now it is just second nature, so maybe sawing will be the same? I hope...