"Antibacterial Soap and Dust Collection" or "Yet Another Dust Collection Thread"

[Nigel Tracy]

Hi guys and gals,

I’ve been enjoying working in a “well ventilated” shop, ok ok a two car garage—but it has doors and windows all around and we’re out in the woods and I use fans and there’s often a breeze, so fine dust hasn’t been an issue. Well it’s that glorious time when I get to move into a new, dedicated shop space. That space, while in the “basement,” is really ground level, with windows, larger, and I’m really looking forward to it.

It’s time to talk dust collection.

The new shop has stairs up to the garage and outside, and a door to the rest of the ground floor (basement with woodstove for heating, laundry, etc.) of the house. In the house it’s connected to live precious family members, and therefore

My main concern is health.

(My secondary concern is cleanliness.)

I have read Bill Pentz’s website. I’ve read countless posts here. (All are informative; some are highly technical; some verge on being quite controversial.) If I were a cabinetmaker, or other professional woodworker, jointing and planing hundreds of bf of exotic, potentially harmful lumber every day, then there’s no question I would go for a 5hp clear vue cyclone and vent it outside and call it done.

I’m not high-volume. I turn a lot (bowls mostly), and do the odd bookshelf, table, whatever. I usually wear a respirator. And it’ll be just me, one machine at a time in my 20 x 30 space.

I wish I could vent outside, but I couldn’t during the colder days (including winter), which make up probably 75% of my shop time during the year (summer is my work busy season).

Even though the cost of the Clear Vue system seems reasonable compared with others, my gut tells me I don’t need 5hp needing a 30 amp circuit all to itself… it seems a 3hp correctly-designed cyclone should do the trick. But I don’t want to base the health of some very important people on my gut reaction… and Bill Pentz tells me I need 5hp to have sound, “medical” dust collection…

Mr Pentz seems to make such a strong, convincing argument for sound collection of harmful “fine” dust. The other end of the spectrum says “we all react differently to dust and I’ve been breathing sawdust for x years…”

Now I believe that our society uses too much anti-bacterial soap, and that kids should play in the dirt and build up normal immune systems… but breathing in fine dust particles that “lodge in tissues” does not sound good.

Help…?

[Eric McCune]

I think with a shop connected to a house, anything you can do to limit the fine dust that makes it into your house and your lungs is worth the investment.

The cost difference between a 5hp vs 3hp isn't that much. Maybe 10-15% more.

Look at the fan curves and figure out what you need at each machine. I think the extra cushion and peace of mind 5hp provides is worth the money. If your ducting isn't perfect or you use a little extra flex duct, 5hp could be the difference.

I'm building my shop now and I'm trying to decide between a clear vue and oneida. I will be ordering in the next few weeks.

I think with all the research you've done, you already answered your question.

[Nigel Tracy]

I think with a shop connected to a house, anything you can do to limit the fine dust that makes it into your house and your lungs is worth the investment...

Yes absolutely. Fair point.

...The cost difference between a 5hp vs 3hp isn't that much. Maybe 10-15% more...

True but is it me or does 5hp for a hobby shop just seem like overkill?

...I think with all the research you've done, you already answered your question.

I suppose. But it still comes down to the antibacterial soap discussion, i.e. whether or not Mr. Pentz is a tad extreme...

It strikes me that there aren't definitive stats on respiratory and other health problems associated with hobby woodworking, and the magazines and other authorities (or at least none that I'm aware of) don't seem nearly as concerned as one individual...

Please don't get me wrong. I owe all due thanks and respect to Mr. Pentz for all his work and research. Clearly, his pursuit is noble. I just can't help but wonder, before I go running 6" duct work all over my one-man, one-day a week shop in order to achieve sufficient CFMs and FPMs, whether I might be killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

In one discussion thread on the subject of respiratory effects of woodworking, numerous posters say "listen to your body" to tell whether or not you're sensitive--well in my 6+ years of working with walnut and maple mostly, I've never had any reaction to dust... (yet?? )

[Dave MacArthur]

You say you've read all the Pentz pages, and all the posts here; and that your main concern is the health of your family. I love a good dust collection thread, but the thing that stands out in yours was an inference that Mr. Pentz is alone ("one individual") in his opinions, and extreme. I would disagree with both these views.

Mr. Pentz presents solid engineering data on his site, and he backs it up extensively with test data and thorough write-ups detailing methodology. The decision on how much risk you are willing to accept and what financial cost you'll bear to mitigate an admittedly nebulous medical risk is wholly yours. You've certainly hit all the critical points for mitigation in your post-- working outdoors, open airflow, wearing respirator, high CFM DC and exhaust outside.

Now the decision on exactly where you'll choose to spend your $ on the CFM/static pressure fan curves seems to be fairly simple to me, particularly for someone who like yourself clearly has done his homework and knows what he's talking about. Fairly decent data is there on what 5HP will do for you vs. 3HP from an engineering standpoint, you know it will boost your CFM after long runs and corners. Do you need it for your design? Do you want to pay for it and the larger electrical requirements, or can you design within the limitations of 3HP? With a yet-to-be-decided shop plan, and your knowledge, I'd think that you COULD achieve good fines collection with 3HP. However, that would not make me question the information Mr. Pentz presents, nor call him "extreme". All discussions or arguments have two extremes, the opposing points of view, with everyone else who don't know or care lumped somewhere in the middle.

I am reminded of soooo many examples of when someone warned about a risk or problem that we as a society were accustomed to accepting, where the mitigation of the risk would put some manufacturor or business or individuals themselves at risk of increased costs. The "whistle blower" is always attacked and their credibility questioned. And almost always proved correct by history.
=Smoking--particles and tar in the lungs.
=Lead based paint.
=Asbestos in various building materials--fibers in the lungs/body that can't be broken down thus causing cellular reactions and cancer.
=DDT--insecticide in the food chain.
=Agent Orange-defoliant breathed into the lungs or skin absorption
= toxic waste dump effects and the EPA
= cholesterol and high-fat diet effects
= Now Deep Sea oil drilling vs. potential planetary losses

...............
mineral and non-biodegradable dust-- breathed into the lungs where it can't be expelled by body and just sits there irritating cells, i.e. fine wood-dust. I don't know, but it sounds kind of obvious to me when I don't call it "wood-dust".

In the end, it's a personal choice of money vs. risk, and there are plenty of "right answers" for different situations and exposures. Sometimes we find it easier to question whatever forces us into an uncomfortable decision. Life doesn't put all the data before us into two clear choices, only history does. Mr. Pentz has done his part and run a warning flag up the pole, we've seen it and now the rest is on us.

As this area is the only "vice" I have that risks affecting my kid's health, and the marginal cost difference was not much more than a year's worth of soda drank at work, I decided to drink water at work and bought the 5HP. Would have been happy with 3HP I'm sure, but that's not the deal I ran across.

My reading tells me the respiratory risks from breathing fine dust are from getting stuff in your lungs that your body can't get rid of nor break down, NOT from allergy-reactions. The discussion of "listen to your body" is a completely different subject, addressing allergic reactions to wood dust. The problem with fine dust in the lungs is that your body DOESN'T tell you anything to listen to until it's too late.

Sorry for the soapbox

[Dan Hintz]

Nigel,

Looks like I'll be the lone wolf. Bill Pentz has a ton of great info, but he's not a God... keep that in mind. I won't get into a contest with others on what's correct, but if it were me (doing it over again) I'd stick with my current 2HP unit and keep my runs short and straight wherever possible. Put a quality HEPA filter on it (like the Wynn Environmental 35A nano) along with a Phil Thein separation baffle, and you'll have plenty of protection.

[Greg Roberts]

I would not put a shop in the basement of my house.

Dust collection is just one thing, but there are other health considerations to woodworking projects, like off-gassing of finishes we use and store in the shop, and/or kids/grandkids having easy access to the tools.

A shop attached to a house is fine, where the space can be isolated from the home.

Greg

[Nigel Tracy]

...The problem with fine dust in the lungs is that your body DOESN'T tell you anything to listen to until it's too late.

Sorry for the soapbox

Not at all. Thank you for your great response Dave. I feel like a teeter totter. After reading your post I was sure I'd go for the monster Clear Vue.

Nigel,

Looks like I'll be the lone wolf. ... if it were me (doing it over again) I'd stick with my current 2HP unit and keep my runs short and straight wherever possible. Put a quality HEPA filter on it (like the Wynn Environmental 35A nano) along with a Phil Thein separation baffle, and you'll have plenty of protection.

Thanks for sharing your experience Dan. Why do you say that would be "plenty" of protection? I assume you mean that your shop stays dust free with no issues?

And for the record, truly I'm not trying to stir the hornet's nest here. I'm just trying to decide how far to go with my system.

OK 2 more thoughts:

1) It just seems that while reading all the, shall we say, "Bill Pentz" opinions out there, now and again one lone poster will make a very sound observation about the topic that gets you thinking about "overkill"... i.e. in particular this post in the thread titled Tulane Wood Dust Study - "wood dust is bad for you" is a lie?--

2) And how about the fellow who has a Pentz-designed Clear Vue, and had Bill Pentz himself come and test out his shop and Bill basically said that any closed-door shop "had residual dust problems regardless of dust collector, cyclone, filters, or air cleaner." and he goes on to add "The only other issue this testing is showing is the huge numbers of very fine particles that are going through the filters along with a few failed filters that woodworkers thought were working just fine."

Taken from this post in the thread Bill Pentz and the Cyclone Test

Now I feel really discouraged. Maybe I should stay up in the freezing cold garage...

[Paul McGaha]

Nigel,

This is just my opinion, Earlier this year I installed a 2 HP Oneida Dust Gorilla. I have no complaints about the system or Oneida. My cyclone was sized by Oneida and does pull the visable dust out of my machines.

If I had to do it again I think I would go 5 HP as it moves a lot more air and dosent cost that much more and from what I'm reading the 5 HP Collectors should be able to better deal with the non visable dust.

I would also take a long look at the Clear View Cyclone as it is highly regarded by several here at SMC and at the Bill Pentz site. I think the Clear View Cyclones are also very sharply priced.

Just my $.02

PHM

[Nigel Tracy]

I would not put a shop in the basement of my house.

Dust collection is just one thing, but there are other health considerations to woodworking projects, like off-gassing of finishes we use and store in the shop, and/or kids/grandkids having easy access to the tools.

A shop attached to a house is fine, where the space can be isolated from the home.

Greg

Great points Greg, thanks. I'll clarify the space in question by saying the it is below the garage, ground level with windows on two walls, a stairway up to the garage, and one door to the rest of the ground-floor "basement" under the house. The potential shop does not have any ducting to it--in fact (right now) it's a concrete box (including ceiling). So it's not like it's under the living room with vents through the floor.

However, I find myself wondering if it's wise to put too much effort into it for the exact reasons you state. (Not to mention all this dust-debate...)

[Eric McCune]

Nigel,

One more point about the antibacterial soap vs dust collection. I don't see the connection, using antibacterial soap might have negative consequences. On the other hand, you can never remove too much dust.

If you can afford it, 5hp might be overkill but there's no consequence.

[Nigel Tracy]

Nigel,

One more point about the antibacterial soap vs dust collection. I don't see the connection, using antibacterial soap might have negative consequences. On the other hand, you can never remove too much dust.

If you can afford it, 5hp might be overkill but there's no consequence.

Very true, thanks for that.

And given the reasonable cost of the Clear Vue, any lesser system wouldn't be much less cost wise.

I'll keep looking into it but likely go that route. Thanks everyone for letting me "vent" (pun intended) my frustration when trying to get a handle on this issue. I suspect it's common. In fact I think one thread I read was titled "Bill Pentz is getting me down"...

Any more thoughts, especially on my proposed shop relocation, are welcome. Thanks again

[John Coloccia]

2 things:

1) the dust doesn't know if you're a hobbyist or a professional and you need every bit as much CFM to clear it either way. Hobbyists are typically exposed to WAY more dust than pros are because they have inadequate dust control in a confined space. Just how much depends on what you do, which brings me to...

2) There's no need to wonder about this. Buy a Dylos meter and put it in your shop. It's money well spent and it will tell you what works and what doesn't work. In my shop, when I'm even just hand sanding for a little bit, the counts on the other side of the shop sky rocket. There's no dust cloud. No other indication. THAT'S the stuff that will harm you.

My shop has a Cleavue and a JDS air cleaner. Depending what I'm doing I STILL wear a mask for certain steps where all my dust collection is just inadequate. The Dylos makes it easy to tell when my scheme is working and when it's not.

Given that there are readily available tools and resources, no one has to think of anyone else as a "god" in order to get this right. Buy the meter, put it in your shop, and then use your own judgement what your tolerance is. You'll be surprised the first day you turn on the meter and the counts are through the roof, and then you come down the next morning and they're STILL through the roof. That will change with a good DC system and an air cleaner. If you were in the area, I'd lend you mine.

re: venting
Dust collection, for me, is the single most aggravating part of my shop. Somedays I want to just rent out a building and build a real shop so I can have a real industrial dust collector that dumps into a dumpster and vents outside. It would just be on all the time, and it would be quite because it'd be outside. That would be a DREAM. I think most of us understand what a PITA it is to do all that work for something that has nothing to do with actually doing woodworking.

[Paul Wunder]

Nigel,

In the woodworking world where unbiased information is not always available, I put my trust in Bill Pentz. He had nothing to sell me; he had no way of making a "buck" off of me. He seemed only concerned about getting the word out about taking care of your lungs. Based on his work I bought the ClearVue. I have a 25X25 walkout basement shop like yours, and a wife upstairs. I also have a lung disease which impairs my ability to exchange my oxygen. One can analyze this decision on a cost/benefit basis (like the folks at Ford did with the Pinto gas tanks years ago) and do empirical "what if" thinking about the "likelihood" of lung problems. Keep in mind that most of us do not appreciate their health until they are suddenly challenged.

Paul

[Andrew Joiner]

Hi guys and gals,







I’m not high-volume. I turn a lot (bowls mostly), and do the odd bookshelf, table, whatever. I usually wear a respirator. And it’ll be just me, one machine at a time in my 20 x 30 space.

And John says "Dust collection, for me, is the single most aggravating part of my shop."

Hi Nigel, I was a cabinetmaker for years and I agree with John. I had a big stroke sander that I tried dust collection on. It took lots of time to set up still lots of dust got in the air. No matter how much I tinkered with it, maybe 75% of the dust got collected and a dust mask was mandatory.

My point is some machines and tools are easier to set-up for good dust collection. A lathe is not one of them. Portable tools and hand sanding are a challenge. You need to take the time to maintain and tune a dust collection system, for me very aggravating. Even then some dust gets in the air!

In my hobby shop these days I wear a mask for sanding and use a broom once in a while. No dust collector.

[Greg Portland]

Bill Pentz tells me I need 5hp to have sound, “medical” dust collection

Bill Pentz does NOT say that. He says you need filtration down to a certain micron level with a certain efficiency level in order to meet OSHA regulations. Whether that filter is on your face (respirator) or whether it's on the tools (DC) is up to you. If you elect to not wear a positive pressure respirator then you will need a certain class of dust collector in order to collect enough fine dust. The main problem is that people think that they are "safe" when they use a 1.5HP collector and cheap fabric bag. Those kinds of collectors barely collect chips, let alone the fine dust that can really screw up your lungs.