Sliding TS - panel saw advice needed

[Greg Roberts]

I recently purchased a used Felder K700s for my shop. I build speaker cabinets and use 5' x 5' Baltic Birch panels. I figured a saw like this would be the best for handling these panels, especially alone. Ease of operation, safety, and accuracy were the reasons for the purchase and the change from my old trusty cabinet saw.

But I'm having some difficulties with using the saw.

Ease of operation? Well, yes, I suppose with large panels, it is easy to put them on the table and make the cuts alone. But using the fence to the right of the blade to make cuts is very cumbersome and dangerous if you ask me. The stand for the saw is right in the way of where I would stand to push a board through, and I find myself leaning over awkwardly to finish the cut.

Safety? Yes, for the most part, probably safer than my cabinet saw. But the blade guard does get in the way at times, and I find myself taking it off. Then, with the aforementioned issues, I feel like I'm very susceptible to an accident.

Accuracy? In my opinion, not as much as with my cabinet saw. I know I haven't used this saw all that much. In fact, I've only cut one major project with it, but just today I found myself making cuts that were not as accurate as I'm used to doing with my cabinet saw.

When I first got the saw, I spent an entire day setting it up and adjusting it. The PO did not have it set up right. I followed the Felder instructions and everything tuned in nicely. I did the five-cut system on a 4 x 8 panel for over an hour, making adjustments to the fence until I had it within a few hundredths of an inch over the 7' cut.

But what I'm finding is that it's not the accuracy of the fence that is the problem. It is simply that putting a piece of wood against the outrigger cross-cut fence is an in-exact thing. What looks to be "tightly fitting" against the fence can actually be out by a 1/16" or more over the length of the cut.

For instance, I had a piece of plywood that was about 16" x 26" long. I needed to rip this to 12-5/8" x 26". So I set the flip-stop on the cross-cut fence to 12-5/8", held the piece very carefully against the fence, wiggled a little to get it set, held very securely at the back end of the piece against the sliding table, and pushed the piece through. I found that sometimes the cut was very accurate, but other times it was off by 1/16". The accuracy of my cuts was variable, which makes it not accurate! Certainly farther out than if I was using my cabinet saw.

I do have a parallel fence for my saw, and I use it for longer narrower panels. But it takes a lot of extra time to set it up. You have to setup two fences to make the cut. With my cabinet saw, I would make one change to the fence and run the piece through. Next piece? Set the fence, run it through. I can't imaging having to use a parallel fence for a 26" long cut, and then have to change both fences to make another cut.

The Felder is a very well built machine, and it works flawlessly. I'm going to continue to get used to it and give it plenty of time before making any changes. But I'm writing all this to get advice from those who use these types of saws, on ways that might make it easier for me.

Greg

[dave rave]

To Quote your post:

"For instance, I had a piece of plywood that was about 16" x 26" long. I needed to rip this to 12-5/8" x 26". So I set the flip-stop on the cross-cut fence to 12-5/8", held the piece very carefully against the fence, wiggled a little to get it set, held very securely at the back end of the piece against the sliding table, and pushed the piece through. I found that sometimes the cut was very accurate, but other times it was off by 1/16"."

So, if I understand correctly, you were doing effectively a "rip cut", that is a lengthwise cut, using the crosscut fence? I would consider it a fairly unusual decision to make a lengthwise cut bracing the piece on its short edge rather than its long edge. I use a Hammer slider and I would do that exact same cut using the rip fence. Maybe I'm confused, but this is how I would do the process you are describing. I would push the slider forward to almost full extension, getting it out of my way. I would then set the rip fence to 12-5/8". I would then make the cut pushing against the rip fence and not using the slider whatsoever. As for the body of the saw being in the way, I rather like that because I am always out of the kickback area, so I consider it a safety feature. Yes I have to lean over, but I don't find it particularly awkward, at least not in the size of material you are describing.

Continuing on in your post, I quote:

"I do have a parallel fence for my saw, and I use it for longer narrower panels. But it takes a lot of extra time to set it up. You have to setup two fences to make the cut. With my cabinet saw, I would make one change to the fence and run the piece through. Next piece? Set the fence, run it through. I can't imaging having to use a parallel fence for a 26" long cut, and then have to change both fences to make another cut."

What two fences are you setting up to make a cut? If you can do a cut with one fence on a cabinet saw, why do you need to use two on a slider? I think the best way I can explain my confusion/position is that I tend to think of the slider as two tablesaws. One is a traditional cabinet saw with a standard ripping (what you call parallel) fence. When I need to do a lengthwise cut I use that fence and ignore the slider entirely. The second table saw is the slider, which I use primarily for crosscutting, but I will use for straightlining large panels, panels that are way bigger than your example panel. But those panels allow me to put close to 4 feet on the crosscut fence which is a lot more stable than 12 inches.

So perhaps the problem is that you are trying to use both the crosscut fence and the ripping fence simultaneously? Those are the only two fences your saw seems to have and if you are setting them both for cuts that's what I would have to assume you are doing. If you are using both fences simultaneously, I would be very careful about what you are doing. In my opinion, the only safe way to do that is to brace the board against the crosscut fence, pull the rip fence back so that the front tip of it is behind the blade, and use the rip fence only as a "stop" so you can make a series of crosscuts at the same size, that is the distance between the blade and the rip fence. And I would never do this operation using a narrow edge on the crosscut fence, only with the long edge on the crosscut fence.

One other thought I have is that perhaps you are doing operations in the wrong order? I recommend doing all your rips first before moving to all your crosscuts. It'll save you a lot of time and you won't have to go back and forth between the two fences. It should also mean that you always have the longest edge against the fence, making all of the operations safer.

I hope this helps. If I totally misunderstood the problem, I apologize for the long post. But if I'm right, what you are doing is at minimum less than ideal, and at worst dangerous.

[Mike Konobeck]

I am new to this world. Only a few days into have a full combo. The one thing I noticed is on my older Felder machine the rip fence deflects a lot. I used the TS Aligner (which fits very well into the slider rails!) to measure the deflection. Can't remember exactly what is was but could be easily the 1/16" you described. Going to head to Rockler tomorrow to pick up a magjig deal or make something using magnets to keep the end of the rip fence from deflecting. The "Unofficial Guide" and the Felder manual say to adjust the fence to accomidate that but that is unacceptable in my opinion. You have a newer saw so they may have fixed that. I know my brand new A3-31 also deflected so something to consider. Sorry if this doesn't address your issue directly.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Greg, yes with the larger sliding tables the base for the slider on the infeed side is an obstruction when ripping.

You have two options, stand on the outboard side of the slider and push the wood against the fence/through the blade. This is a good position as you're out of the kickback zone.

The other option is to use the parallel cutting attachment where you use the cross cut fence flip stop and the parallel device to hold the work in place for ripping, using the sliding table. This requires more setup, yet is often easier since you have the benefit of using the sliding table.

One issue with fence deflection is that it can reduced by moving the fence back into the operator area so that it ends at the saw blade. This gives more infeed guidance and reduces deflection, after all, once the wood has hit the blade you don't need any more guidance.

It's a learning and experimentation process to go from a cabinet saw to a slider.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

I know my brand new A3-31 also deflected so something to consider. Sorry if this doesn't address your issue directly.

Hi Mike, the issue with the A3-31 fence isn't important however since the fence stays in the correct plane.

If your fence is twisting, that's a different story........Regards, Rod.

[Greg Roberts]

What two fences are you setting up to make a cut? .

I see the confusion in my post.

The two fences I was referring to are the cross-cut fence and the parallel cutting jig. Sorry I don't have a picture of it. I'm not referring to the fence to the right of the blade, I know better than to use the cross-cut and that fence at the same time.

My saw came with a separate table and parallel stop that can be located anywhere on the sliding table. This is used to make a rip cut on a piece of narrow wood, using the sliding table. There are two points of contact, one is the flip stop on the cross-cut fence, and the other is the stop on the parallel cutting jig. Both have scales with pointers on them, so by setting both to exactly the same number, you get a parallel cut with the slider.

Perhaps you are correct that I should be doing all rips with the standard fence to the right of the blade. That being the case, I really don't like the ergonomics of the design. But I also don't like having to set both of the other fences to make a simple rip cut. This is my dilemma so far with this type of saw format. It makes me wish I had a cabinet saw with a large table surrounding it instead of the slider. Or maybe I should have gotten the type of slider that does not have the cabinet base sticking out like mine.

Greg

[Greg Roberts]

One issue with fence deflection is that it can reduced by moving the fence back into the operator area so that it ends at the saw blade. This gives more infeed guidance and reduces deflection, after all, once the wood has hit the blade you don't need any more guidance.

It's a learning and experimentation process to go from a cabinet saw to a slider.

Regards, Rod.

Fence deflection? Do you think that is what I'm experiencing?

Back to my example of a 12" rip on a 26" long piece. I'm putting the piece up against the flip stop on the cross-cut fence and holding 12" of the piece up against the fence. I'm not noticing the fence moving at all. What I do notice is that I can move the piece ever so slightly without realy seeing or feeling a difference in "holding the piece tight to the fence". That to me is the variable here, the "holding the piece tight to the fence" part.

My basic point is, that I see the variable of "holding the piece tight to the fence" as being less accurate than simply ripping against the fence to the right of the blade on a cabinet saw. I think I'm failing to see what is so great about having a K700S versus a fully equipped Unisaw.

My expectations were higher than what I'm experiencing so far. Of course, in time, this might change.

Greg

[Rod Sheridan]

Sorry Greg, I misunderstood your post.

When you use the crosscut fence, as the reference for ripping a narrow piece of wood, any irregularity or inaccuracy will be magnified in ratio to the dimensions.

This is exactly what would happen if you used the mitre gauge on your cabinet saw for the same task.

When you use the rip fence to rip, the accuracy is independent of the width of the piece, and increases as the piece gets longer.

To use the crosscut fence/slider for ripping you need a good edge against the fence.

I normally straight line a piece using the crosscut fence or the edging shoe/hold down clamp depending upon whether it's a piece of sheet goods or rough timber.

Once you have a straight edge you can use it as the reference to rip it using the rip fence, rip it using the parallel rip attachment or use it as the reference for cross cutting and ripping using the cross cut fence and slider.

If you use the crosscut fence/slider for all four sides of your piece, you're essentially performing a four cut test every time. If your fence and slider are set up properly, the accuracy will be fine.

You will get more use out of the slider than a cabinet saw, you just have to take some time to learn new methods, and think through different work processes.

Your cabinet saw could never straight line rip, or crosscut sheet goods.

Regards, Rod.

[Travis Porter]

Hi Greg. I understand and know exactly what you mean. Personally, I am still getting acclimated to my Felder (older model than yours) as I have had mine around 3 years or so now.

Ripping is a bit different with the way the saw is laid out, and I am still getting used to it. I use the rip fence for all ripping operations. I generally stand to the left of the saw and have a monster push stick. In a lot of instances use the sliding table itself to help me feed the board/panel through, but still rely on the rip fence. To your point the ergonomics are something to get used to especially after using a cabinet saw for 15 years.

As for the 5 sided cut/true up method, I did that a hundred times, adjusted my fences a hundred times, and finally gave it up. David Best commented on FOG at some point he didn't understand why so many people were into it. Now I use either a very large panel and the pythagorean theorem to validate it and or I believe what is called a "polish" square and dial indicators.

I do not try to rip with my cross cut fences. They could get something wedged behind them like a little scrap or such and then that throws the rip off. If you do, make sure it is clean (no dust, no scraps, etc). Still, I would double check set ups with a different method than the 5 sided cut and make sure all stops are locked securely..

I am starting to feel that the Felder is more accurate repeatably than a cabinet saw. The sliding tables, cross cut fences, outrigger, etc make it very flexible and adaptable quickly.

Still, I miss the availability of over the counter jigs/accessories (stuff that fits in the miter gauge slot, feather boards,etc), but there are ways to do it with the Felder.

[Mike Konobeck]

Hey Rod,

I have a CF 731 Pro now and I am experiencing the fence deflection on the rip fence (which is also the fence for the J/P). Completely agree that the deflection is not an issue on J/P operations but ripping is a huge issue. I like your idea of sliding the fence back a bit. Should help. Although having fence past the blade on longer pieces does help keep the material true through the cut. Especially when you have more material past the blade then before it.

For good measure I will likely add some type of magnetic stop to the end. Should be very easy to come up with something that moves with the fence and when I need it to lock down I just engage the magnet.

Hey Greg,

If I am understanding the issue correctly, it sounds like the crosscut fence and rip fence are not exactly at 90. It might be a very small fraction off or you are getting deflection while pushing through and against the rip fence which throws the work piece out of square. This is a tough one for me to visualize for some reason. Have you ever used something like the TS Aligner w/ a dial caliper to check whether the slider is running perfectly parallel to the fence and blade or checked the deflection with the same setup? Very easy. Just set the dial caliper in the sliding table rail with the tip against the fence and push. See what happens. Can't hurt. Sorry if you tried that or this has no relevance to your issue. Just spent the last week getting everything dialed in and it proves to be a challenge on combos because of all of the moving parts and differences with what I learned on. Just a matter of getting used to it.

[John Harden]

I see the confusion in my post.

The two fences I was referring to are the cross-cut fence and the parallel cutting jig. Sorry I don't have a picture of it. I'm not referring to the fence to the right of the blade, I know better than to use the cross-cut and that fence at the same time.

My saw came with a separate table and parallel stop that can be located anywhere on the sliding table. This is used to make a rip cut on a piece of narrow wood, using the sliding table. There are two points of contact, one is the flip stop on the cross-cut fence, and the other is the stop on the parallel cutting jig. Both have scales with pointers on them, so by setting both to exactly the same number, you get a parallel cut with the slider.

Perhaps you are correct that I should be doing all rips with the standard fence to the right of the blade. That being the case, I really don't like the ergonomics of the design. But I also don't like having to set both of the other fences to make a simple rip cut. This is my dilemma so far with this type of saw format. It makes me wish I had a cabinet saw with a large table surrounding it instead of the slider. Or maybe I should have gotten the type of slider that does not have the cabinet base sticking out like mine.

Greg

Greg,

I've had my KF-700S saw/shaper, which is nearly identical to your unit about a year now and really like it a lot. Much better than the PM-66 I had previously.

Nearly all of my ripping is done with me standing to the left of the slider using either the parallel cutting device or the "table saw" fence. It is a rare thing for me to use the table saw fence like you would use it on a cabinet saw.

You have the same, heavy duty fence that I have, which is off the 900 series Felder, so I doubt you're getting any flex from it. One, very nice thing about it is that you can loosen the knob and pull the fence way back so the trailing edge is slightly forward of the blade. This allows you to use the slider to rip narrow boards, or to rip repeatable, narrow strips off of a board. I do this frequently and the only limiting factor is you need to have enough material laying on the slider that you can clamp it down.

Sort of hard to describe, so let me give you an example:

You build speaker cabinets so say you have a BB panel that is 60" long and roughly 20" wide. Say you want the finished panel size to be 60" long by 12" wide. Step one is to use the parallel ripping shoe to straight line rip one side, taking off very little material. Next step is to set the "table saw" fence to 12", loosen the knob which allows the fence face to slide fore and aft and pull it forward so the trailing edge is just forward of the blade. Lastly, you pull the slider all the way forward, take the freshly ripped edge, slide it up against the fence, clamp your stock down to the slider and make the rip. The stock is registered against the table saw fence and because the fence stops before the blade, the stock can never get pinched creating an unsafe condition, should something go sideways with your clamping arrangement, etc.

An alternate method would be to use the parallel ripping device, but then you have to pull it out and set it up. This method is Q&E and leverages both the slider and the inherent safety of you and your hands being far to the left and away from the blade. Once you get used to this method, you'll be surprised at how little material you actually have to have laying on the slider. I prefer to clamp the stock, but lots of folks just hold it using the ripping shoe for stability.

Sliders do take some getting used to. Occasionally, I'll come across a rip where it is just easier and faster to use the table saw fence the "old fashioned way". Its funny how when this happens, I am uncomfortable as I'm now standing right in front of the spinning blade, which is not where I prefer to stand.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

John

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mike, it's a learning curve although people who have the Delta Unifence? have a 3 function fence, just like most Euro machinery.

Here's where setup comes in, the sliding table often is set to toe out by a miniscule amount, same as the rip fence except they toe out in opposite directions.

I straight line rip sheet goods, since the slider makes a far better edge than the factory does. Then I rip using the fence.

There's no good reason having the fence project past the leading edge of the blade, since at that point, your wood is cut.

A little projection can help a bit as you indicated, however it's on the lead in to the blade that you need to have good guidance.

We happen to expect to see the fence project beyond the blade, because we grew up with cabinet saws, doesn't mean it's the best way to work, just the most familiar to us.

It takes time to get familiar with the slider, once you get there, it's far better than a cabinet saw.

Regards, Rod.

[johnny means]

If your cross cut fence is deflecting you're jamming the work piece into it to hard. Snug your material against the fence, then hold the material down to the table, then push the whole thing through the cut. If you have an eccentric clamp you may want to use that to hold the piece down to the table.

If your outrigger fence is square, you should be able to cut any rips 12" or better with the crosscut fence.

[Leigh Betsch]

I have a MM slider, the manual indicates that the rip fence should extend beyond the blade a bit. Imagine a 45 degree angle from the center of the blade to the end of the rip fence. So the wider the rip the more the fence would extend beyond the blade. That way it gives you a little follow thru with the piece and the work piece doesn't twist right at the point of cut off. Not sure if this is the best but it does work for me. My rip fence is rock solid with no noticeable deflection.
One very subtle but important features about a slider is that as Rod said the rip fence and the sliding table should tow away from the blade a small amount. I have mine adjusted to tow away about .005 over the length of a 12" dia blade. This keeps the back of the blade always clear of the wood and reduces the kick back probability a bunch. It also assures that the back of the blade will not score the wood and ruin the edge finish. Since the cut off side is not trapped by the rip fence or clamped to the sliding table the riving knife is able to hold the cut off away from the back side of the blade. This tow out is not possible on a cabinet saw because if you ever moved the fence to the other side of the blade you would have tow in and be cutting on the back side of the blade with terrible results, unless you get so much blade wobble that the kerf is bigger than the blade width by a lot. This is the primary reason that I don't trust most blade evaluations that are done on a standard cabinet saw. If they have their fence dead on straight to the blade but don't get a big enough kerf or if the wood springs toward the blade by only a few thousanths the blade will cut on back side and ruin the finish with no fault of the blade other than perhaps not having enough wobble to cut over size and provide clearance. The tow out has no effect on the squareness of the cut. As long as you have the cross cut fence exactly at 90 degrees you will have dead on 90 degree cut off. And no matter how much you skew the rip fence you can not cut a taper, that takes a taper jig!
I will grant you that ripping with the cross cut table takes a bit of getting used to. I still find that I do a lot of ripping with the rip fence but use the sliding table to push thru the cut. I almost always stand to the side of the saw, rarely in line with the blade. You can see my daughter doing a rip using the sliding table to push through, a clamp to hold the start of the cut, and holding the trailing cut against the rip fence to assure parallelism. With the table and the fence towing away from the blade and the riving knife holding the cut off toward the rip fence you can see why the blade can't pinch the wood and cause a poor finish or kick back. The rip fence is a bit long in the pic. And I know, no blade guard. That is something I've got to work on, I have a few bad habits, but I don't smoke!

[Greg Roberts]

I don't think my fence is deflecting. I'm not pushing the material into it hard enough to do that.

I'm very carefully placing the material up against the cross-cut fence, and against the flip-stop.

I've done extensive setup on this machine and the fences are as close to right on as they can be. I have the fences setup to provide the proper runout away from the back of the blade.

My main point here is that with a 12" x 24" long piece, cutting the 24" length using the slider and cross-cut fence, that I can move the piece of wood 1/16" one way or the other and it still looks and feels like it is solidly up against the cross-cut fence. With my old cabinet saw, I would have set the rip fence to 12" and run the piece through against the fence, I believe with greater accuracy.

Let me give another example. If I have a full 4' x 8' sheet on the sliding table, with the 4' edge against the cross-cut fence (as though I'm doing the 5-cut test), and I'm dust-cutting the 8' edge, I can move that sheet 1/8" and still have the sheet look and feel as though it is tight against the fence. You can't tell which position is the perfect and accurate position, this one, or 1/8" over.

Understand, we are not talking about fence deflection here, and we're not talking about the accuracy of the fence setup. I'm talking specifically about not being able to know for sure that the piece of wood is sitting perfectly square to the fence or parallel to the blade. From what I can see, the only way to be sure is to use the parallel jig table, and frankly, that's just too much of a PIA to set up all the time for each rip cut.

So, this makes me want to use this saw like I would use a cabinet saw to do rip cuts, and that I find to be ergonomically challenging.

Greg