At what price level to you expect / demand a perfect new tool?

[Ben Cadotte]

There are gloats and anti-gloats all over this forum. I just recieved a tool with major components missing. And becuase of who I ordered it from there was no way to confirm if the other parts were indeed forgotten / shipped on its own. Only choice was to return and reorder. There have been several complaints about getting a machine and it being broken / not right out of the box.

Not getting into a particular manufacturer or seller. What pricing level do you make the demands of a perfect machine, 100% right out of the box? Obviously nobody wants a broken or hard to assemble machine. But at what price level are you more open to fixing, tweaking, or modifying. At what level should you be allowed to send a defective machine back vs. sending to a service center. Should the seller / manufacturer be responsible for the shipping costs if it does go back or to a service center.

I have some cheap chinese tools that expectations were not high. And a couple needed some tweaking to work 100% correctly. But due to the price I paid, it didn't bother me. I had 1 big name tool where the grind was so roungh on the cast iron bed I nearly sent it back, but chose to instead smooth it down myself since it was not that critical.

Where do you draw the line in accepting something that is not totally correct? At what point are you willing to forgo shipping costs for a return?

[David Prince]

I don't think I would consider any concessions if something was missing from a NEW tool. Yes, maybe some minor blemishes considering a lesser brand, but not missing parts. Quality is one issue, but missing a part is another.

[Rod Sheridan]

Ben, I don't consider it a price issue, I consider it a size issue.

If I can pick it up and carry it, like a mitre saw for example, then I would expect a straight exchange, or repair at the option of the warranty provider, and I could ship it or drive it there.

If I bought a table saw that had a broken guard, I would expect a new guard to be shipped to me, as that's something an owner should be capable of taking care of.

If the saw had major problems, I would expect a field service Tech at my house to correct the issue.

To me it's similar to buying a dishwasher or fridge, if it has a problem, send a service Tech to my house and fix it.

Both of those items are far easier to move than a 350 Kg saw, and yet the appliance vendors understand that it's too big to move so they'll come to the customer.

I understand that a machinery company may not have employees everywhere, however they can either hire a third party company or fly their Tech to locations.

Mailing me a new cast iron top for a saw, with the expectation that I'll be capable of, or wish to undertake a repair of that magnitude isn't good customer service in my opinion.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Leigh]

No price is high enough for a perfect tool. As long as humans are involved there will be errors/omissions/mistakes. To expect anything less is unrealistic.
Rod is right, size is the key. If I receive a hand held power tool that is broken or damaged I'll return to the store and open a dozen boxes until I find an acceptable one.
For a table saw or drill press I expect the replacement parts to be delivered to me free of charge and in a timely manner. If the repair is too involved I expect the manufacturer to be held to his repair/return policy which I, as the consumer, have thoroughly researched and understand PRIOR to the purchase.

[Neil Brooks]

Olllld saying:

There's price, quality, and service.

Pick two

[Brian Kent]

I expect even a Harbor Freight tool on clearance to be complete and adjustable to make it work right. I could forgive paint blemishes.

Most of my big tools are Grizzly and Delta. I expect them to work completely, be blemish-free, set up smoothly, and not have any structural corrections. They have delivered, except for a Delta grinder that runs smoothly but required hours of work getting the guards and guides square. I was new enough that I thought I was doing something wrong.

It is unthinkable to buy a $1,000 or more tool and not have it perform right.

[Callan Campbell]

As Rod S. correctly put it, sometimes it's about the size of the thing involved, and did it become a built-in like in the case of so many appliances. For woodworking stuff only topic, I and others seem to believe certain brands have marketed themselves in the very position you're asking about. Example:. I can buy lot of things from L-N, some low in cost, some pricey. I, and others, have an expectation that ALL of their goods provided will work right out of the box,[ honing & sharpened to your angle of taste/need , excluded] So for me, there's NO price point that I would be happy with a defective tool from L-N since they're worked hard to establish themselves as a high quality tool maker. A set of chisels or a plane from someone else?, I might work on the tool or finally contact the maker for assistance.
If it's a machine tool, then where is it in the price range for a given class of similar machines. And, it is used or new? I guess for the above I assign a certain price value and the "value expectations" with that price range without giving it much thought at times. Like:, well, it cost several hundred dollars more than the other machines, so it had better be good. Not a perfect thought process, but probably one that we all make with out much thought from time to time. One can adjust the assigned value based on reviews found here and elsewhere to change your perception of some tool or machine pretty quickly when someone posts trouble with a certain machine or hand tool.
This posted question also raises lot of interesting thoughts about certain brands can muddle through life providing great to awful products, while others get hung out to dry with just one bad item. Strange how the marketplace and people react.

[Will Overton]

Since at some point along the way, humans are involved in the process and humans aren't perfect, getting a perfect tool is hit or miss. Hopefully higher priced tools have a higher standard quality control. I don't remember the exact #'s, but years ago the inspection process of a Cadillac coming off the line allowed 3 x's the amount of time as a Chevy.

As for what to expect if there is a problem, you should know this before making a purchase. Don't buy something where the warranty says "return it to us", if you expect someone to come to your house. Although I never bought one, I do recall seeing some Sears service contract or extended warranties in the past that had in home service as a feature.

In most [not all] cases companies will stand behind there obligations, only a few will go beyond that. But on the other side of the coin I've never met a customer offers to pay more for a product than the asking price.

[Kent A Bathurst]

......... higher standard quality control. I don't remember the exact #'s, but years ago the inspection process of a Cadillac coming off the line allowed 3 x's the amount of time as a Chevy.....

After many years as an external and as an internal manufacturing process consultant, let me assure you of one of the basic "truths" of manufacturing: You cannot inspect quality into a product. You must have the design, processes, people, and mindset that builds quality into the product.

Reading your comment, I come to a completely different conclusion that you: Caddy had no clue how to manufacture a quality product, and had to throw bodies at it to look for screw-ups requiring correction before it could be shipped. How big was their "after-final-production-repairs" parking lot? Immediately makes me think of the Cadillac Catera - the "Caddy that zigs." A complete joke.

[Prashun Patel]

I think it's not possible to put a level on this.

Everyone makes mistakes. How often they make them, and how they resolve them is where the differentiation is.

Most of the time when I make a budget purchase, I expect some kind of deficiency. If it's from a reputable seller, I expect perfection or at least willingness on their part to right any wrongs.

I guess there's my answer: The expectation of perfection is based on the reputation of the seller.

Some sellers I'd expect perfection from: Lee Valley.

[Brian Kent]

On the definition of "Perfect", a pencil is perfect if it is half used up, with the paint chewed off, if I stick the pointy side down and it makes a mark, and with the pink side down it erases the mark.

[Will Overton]

You cannot inspect quality into a product.

True, but without inspection you can't tell if you have a problem, unless you want to wait for the customer to find it.

[Kent A Bathurst]

True, but without inspection you can't tell if you have a problem, unless you want to wait for the customer to find it.

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

At GM specifically, it sailed with Roger Smith as Chmn-CEO, and one can only hope that all his like-minded acolytes have finally been tossed over the gunwales. But, GM did by no means have a lock on that one - just following your lead-in.

[Neil Brooks]

[did some QC work myself....]

It's certainly true that one philosophy of quality control IS that quality is designed and engineered IN -- NOT tested OUT.

But that doesn't make Will wrong.

You design a process. You establish metrics against which to measure the success of that process. You keep your eye on those metrics. You adjust the process accordingly.

I don't see this as an either/or proposition....

[David Weaver]

There are gloats and anti-gloats all over this forum. I just recieved a tool with major components missing. And becuase of who I ordered it from there was no way to confirm if the other parts were indeed forgotten / shipped on its own. Only choice was to return and reorder. There have been several complaints about getting a machine and it being broken / not right out of the box.

I don't know who you ordered from but I've had something similar happen with amazon.

They shipped my TS and fence separately. The fence arrived with a bill for $1000, and the freight guy said to take it, I had to sign the bill that said "order complete".

I asked him if he knew where the rest of the saw was, he said he had no record. I called amazon and they told me I wasn't allowed to call the tool section for customer service. I called Cs, and they told me I could send it back or keep it. I was talking to someone overseas who had no idea what a table saw was.

Went back to the tool group there, anyway, and told them I had a situation that had no solution, that I couldn't send them anything back because I hadn't gotten it, and after about 2 days, they finally figured out that the rest of the saw was still in transit.

I had to take a second day off work because of that.

Never again.