At what price level to you expect / demand a perfect new tool?

[Van Huskey]

First, I think most of us have an fantasy level of expectation and a reality based level of the same. Most people buy the best machine/tool they are willing/can afford and there is the expectation that the machine/tool will be "perfect" out of the box, but there is also depending on the person and the price level a "real" expectation and understanding that things aren't perfect. I think the accurate portrayal is the point in the QC curve we as an individual get seriously frustrated or angry. I often think this level of "perfection" moves with how much one pushed their budget. For an analogy look at the car world: A person goes out and buys two cars, one a Kia Rio and one a Porsche 911 GT3RS, after 5,000 miles both drop a valve and their engines are ruined. Both companies tow the car, give a loaner and the cars have new engines installed and are back in two weeks with no money out of pocket. More often than not that owner will be more satisfied with the product from Kia and be significantly less happy with Porsche because it "shouldn't" have happened to the Porsche.

In the end I never expect perfection because as a symantic exercise it does not exist in man made products. I do however expect it to work within resonable woodworking tolerances, and if it doesn't I expect it to be fixed. Finally, I think it is a great time to be a woodworker, I would argue you can get more quality and capacity for your inflation adjusted dollar than any time in history, this may on occasion cause a little more frustration and anger as manufacturers try to balance features, price and quality control as long as the more for less push is coming from the consumers we are going to have to deal with less than "perfect" machines and in some cases a real lemon.

I do think it is interesting that I have not seen any manufacturer or third party extended service contracts, although I as a rule never buy them the fact they don't exist for machines makes be go HMMMMMM. Do BORGS offer them on their machines? I haven't bought a machine from them so I don't know if they have them for their machines or not.

[Will Overton]

Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will.

I can live with that.

[Chris Friesen]

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

Suppose you have a spec that a particular part is machined to a particular tolerence. How do you ensure that it actually is? Presumably someone needs to check it. Or some machine needs to check it, in which case someone needs to verify that the checking machine is operating within tolerances.

I know at Veritas they check machining tolerences at multiple stages during manufacturing. Is that considered "building in" or "testing out"?

I'm honestly curious here...

[Callan Campbell]

Nope. Sorry. We can't agree on this one, Will. If there a person [or persons] in a manufacturing operation who is designated as "QC" or "QC Inspector" or something similar - or has that general type responsibility regardless of title - then there are underlying, fundamental problems that are neither recognized nor understood. That ship sailed a few decades ago.

At GM specifically, it sailed with Roger Smith as Chmn-CEO, and one can only hope that all his like-minded acolytes have finally been tossed over the gunwales. But, GM did by no means have a lock on that one - just following your lead-in.

Welll, then you're going to just love this little automotive jewel. Let's say a car company has some quality build/design issues on their A/C system of a given model. They spend MAJOR money on a fix for it, along with other items in the same vehicle under a "campaign" to fix all the known problems at once, not just the A/C issue. They spend money on the press releases telling everyone how they'll stand behind the product to fix all the issues.
They proudly send all the relevent bulletins and parts to their dealers. While all of this is going on they're introducing a new model, heavily based on the now stopped production model ,that uses a similarly layed out A/C system in the new model since it "worked" so well in the old one. Andddd, you guessed it, they built the EXACT same A/C fault into the new model, which requires the EXACT same parts replacement to correct, and PREVENT the issue from happening again. They spend millions on the older vehicle campaign, and then spend more millions fixing the next batch of vehicles under warranty until several years later when the A/C problem stops showing up in new vehicles because they finally tweaked one A/C line to stop rubbing on a part. Fun Huh.....

[Kevin Womer]

I can't put a number with my level of expectation of the quality of a product. Like others, I don't expect anything to be perfect (although my planes from Lee Valley were pretty close) but I do expect the company to correct problems that arise. All companies can QA products to death but what good is that if they won't make the effort to correct a problem for the customer? I'm not talking about minor scratches or minor deficiencies that don't affect the function of the tool in this case. I have many different tools in my shop from a wide variety of companies-except Saw Stop, they all have been pretty decent in correcting the few situations that have arisen and I have been pleased with the results without getting into specifics. I try to be reasonable with the customer service reps. and for the most part they have treated me in the same manner.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.......they built the EXACT same A/C fault into the new model, which requires the EXACT same parts replacement to correct, and PREVENT the issue from happening again....

Callan - I am overwhelmed by my complete absence of surprise. Factories are all tooled up. Suppliers are sending in parts like there's no tomorrow. The marketing campaign is in full swing. The dealers are chomping at the bit. Someone finds the original problem. "Ummm......do we shut this thing down, or let 'er rip and fix it later?"

[Frank Drew]

I think the word perfect probably isn't very helpful here. With a new tool, I'd expect no major/serious issues affecting usability; a scratch in the paint in a table saw cabinet might or might not disappoint me (probably not), but it's not something I'd get all torqued up about and demand a replacement. A scratch in the top of a new dining table, or on the hood of a brand new car, however, those aren't acceptable.

I don't expect cosmetic perfection in my tools, but a new tool should work as advertised; all the parts should be there and be ready to go. With a used tool, you get what you get and I'd be ok with having to do more or less tuning up, parts finding, etc., as long as I was told, accurately, what to expect.

[John Coloccia]

I expect everything I buy (not just tools) to do exactly what the manufacturer claims it does, including anything drawn on the box. Nothing is perfect and I expect little hiccups every now and then. I don't expect it to cost me large sums of money or major inconvenience to get a problem on a new tool repaired. That's not really too unreasonable, it is?

[David Prince]

I will share a story about two tools I purchased. One was a lunchbox planer and the other was a handheld router. The planer was on clearance and was the display model. I got a super price on it, but the cord had a cut in it. I wrapped tape around it and called it good. I purchased a router on sale, but nothing spectacular as far as price went. When I opened the box it had a cut in the cord. I promptly returned it for a replacement. Each had a defect, but I was willing to accept a defect knowing that I got a good deal. A return for a replacement wasn't an option for the planer, but I still had a choice to either accept it or send it back. I did expect a higher level of quality when I was closer to regular price.

[Ben Cadotte]

Wow, it sounds like more people are willing to pay a couple thousand for a machine and accept it even if it has some issues that requires repair. I thought people would be a little more picky when the prices start to climb. I have the thinking that if I pay new prices for a machine it should operate like its a new piece of equipment. I should not have to send a new piece of equipment out for a repair. Especially right after I recieve it.

I happen to be a Quality Inspector for an airline. I don't think too many people would like it if I let things go that were only 80 or 90% correct! And yet it sounds like several people are willing to take tools and machines that way.

Like I said I don't expect things to be perfect with lower priced / cheaper copies of other tools. But say I buy a Festool Kapex. I expect it to not need a repair withing a reasonable amount of time over say a Harbor Freight $99 slide saw. To me having to send a Kapex for repair as soon as I get it or fairly soon, I would demand a new saw (just an example).

Of those of you saying your willing to accept a broken or impropperly working machine that needs repair right away. How many of you would keep a car where the engine blew the first day or so that you had it? And allow the dealer to overhaul the egine vs. giving you a new car? Where do you draw the line? Or due to the fact that most machines are shipped, do you feel there is no alternative than to keep it and get it serviced?

[glenn bradley]

First, I think most of us have an fantasy level of expectation and a reality based level of the same. Most people buy the best machine/tool they are willing/can afford and there is the expectation that the machine/tool will be "perfect" out of the box, but there is also depending on the person and the price level a "real" expectation and understanding that things aren't perfect.

Couldn't have said it better. I expect any purchase I have researched and thought out well, to be perfect. I realize there will be graduations.

[Dan Karachio]

Oh this one is easy. The price I expect perfection at are Festool prices. Also, Lie Nielsen prices and Laguna prices.

[Peter Quinn]

I expect machines at all price points to be complete and perform the tasks as advertised. If they cannot perform or arrive with parts so far beyond tolerances that they cannot do accurate work, I expect them to be replaced by the seller or manufacturer. On a large machine like a TS it it might be under assembly in the shop before the problem, like a tweaked table or bad trunion gets realized, what then? Don't bother mailing parts to fix that to me, send me a return shipping invoice or a technician. Little parts like a handle or such, even an extension wing, I'll swap those out, but replacing the tops on a jointer or TS? I've seen people post such things and I can't imagine accepting such rubbish. Imagine getting a new car whose breaks don't work or transmission won't shift and having the dealership offer to send you the parts to fix it!

That said I have received numerous machines from several different major manufacturers, have never had a serious issue, have had one minor issue on a single machine that was resolved rather quickly, and am a generally happy camper in that regard.

[Justin Dreier]

Interesting question that I asked myself recently. I ordered a quality 8" jointer last month. The crate was in good condition and opening it up it all looked in order. I hired the thing hauled down to the basement before I took the wax paper off the ground surfaces.

After setting it up, removing the waxpaper and cleaning it up, I noticed a defect in the top of the jointer. A gouge that was small and rather noticeable, but not such that it would affect performance. The company after seeing the pictures offered a full replacement. Great, but even if I could get it back up stairs, there is no way I could get it boxed back up for transport. It wouldn't arrive in any reasonable condition.

The company worked out an arrangement that was satisfactory for me, but I still scratched my head and wondered how much do I need to pay to get a heafty machine like this with quality controls that would avoid a defect in a ground top? Paint scuff or dent, no problem, but a defect in the machined top...that struck me as not satisfactory.

[Dave Lehnert]

I expect every tool I buy, no matter the cost, to be in 100% usable condition. Now If I buy from a mail order retailer like Amazon (Most likely because it was cheaper,if not, I would buy it local) I accept the fact that if I have problem I may have to jump through some hoops and hassles to get it right. The main reason I have never purchased a large tool mail order. I always go local.