Craftsmanship - Standards

[george wilson]

I wasn't aware that you had said negative things,Marv,and the comment wasn't directed at you. Don't get YOUR bloomers in a wad.

I had just said what is simply factual: It doesn't matter what anyone thinks of the old apprentice system. It is over and gone. It happened hundreds of years ago,and we can't go back and change it.

We can't continue it today,because kids are sent to school until they are grown these days anyway. Back then,their work and their religion WAS their lives, and their education,period.

I did live a pretty hard life when I was young,had to work like hell all the time,and learned most things the hard way. It did make me determined. It was a form of old school apprenticeship.

[Jon van der Linden]

Nothing against today's better craftsmen, but "blow away" the work done in the past? I can't agree with that; skilled craftsmanship, and not just in woodworking, used to be much, much more common than it is now, IMO.

The average person's abilities, no matter their profession, are just that, average.

In the past there was an exceedingly small portion of the population that could afford any kind of luxury item. Any time over 100 years ago, 95% of the population were farmers. The items people made had to be made as quickly as possible for the lowest cost. That doesn't mean people didn't know what they were doing, but there was really very very little high level work going on.

The other fact is that most people are blissfully unaware of the large amount of high end work being done today, which leads to comments from designers like "This table could not have been carved in the West where comparable craftsmanship does not exist anymore." Anyone truly familiar with the craft knows that there are highly skilled craftsmen in Europe (where that table is "made/sold" who could have done the work.

If you're looking at the knowledge of the common laborer/contactor to actually perform their job, today they are quite ignorant. It really depends on the exact field you're talking about and at what level.

[george wilson]

I agree exactly with you,Jon. I had stated that most of the work in the old days was cheap,just like today,and did not survive. We don't keep formica dinette sets in the family for generations.

I agree that many are "blissfully unaware" of the high level of craftsmanship that is being done today. There are extremely good pieces of work to be seen here in the Projects section. SOME (not all) of the submissions to the Rooms of the Internet Craftsmanship Museum are great pieces of work by anyone's standards. I have encouraged people to go there.

[Eric Brown]

If anything, I have found patience to be one of the better lessons learned by concentrating on hand tools. Because of the physical work involved, sometimes it pays to slow down and think about the task and enjoy the process. With power tools you just expect immediate perfect results ever time.

When I build, it's never perfect, but everything brings a smile to my face when I fully embrace the fact that I made it myself.

One "advantage" I have over the professionals is that I'm not in any kind of hurry. I have goals, not deadlines.

Just look at my potato storage box to see some of my joy: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=151796

All the joinery was done by hand.

Enjoy the ride. Do your best, then do better.
Eric

[Frank Drew]

Any time over 100 years ago, 95% of the population were farmers.

Jon,
In 1790, the U.S. labor force was around 90% farm, but it's been dropping dramatically ever since. By 1900, farmers were 38% of the labor force (the U.S. population as a whole in 1900 was ca. 60% rural, but obviously not all were engaged in farm work.) In 1910, your 100 years ago, 31% of the labor force were in farm work.

http://www.agclassroom.org/gan/timel...rmers_land.htm
http://www.census.gov/population/cen.../urpop0090.txt

The other fact is that most people are blissfully unaware of the large amount of high end work being done today

I'm quite aware that high end, high quality work is being done today -- I allow myself to think that I've done my own small share of it -- but hand-made or custom-made anything... furniture, shoes, clothing, housing, boats, cars, leather goods, silver flatware or hollow ware, goldsmithing, whatever, are you really going to argue that today we're in period of hand-crafted workmanship comparable to, say, the Gilded Age? And, repeating myself, I'm arguing quantity, not quality.

My initial posting in this thread was simply to disagree with the notion that today's top work is vastly better ("blows away") the work of previous generations, and I still disagree with that premise: Do today's woodcarvers blow away Grinling Gibbons or the legion of carvers in Renaissance Germany? Are the furniture designs by John and Thomas Seymour's second rate in comparison to the highest end work today? Is even an ultra-expensive home today constructed as well as Biltmore, or some of the "cottages" in Newport?

Please.

But it is what it is, people's priorities have changed; a hundred years ago people with a bit of money would have commissioned a custom dining table, or a set of silverware for twelve; today, they buy an Audi, or a beach house, or pay for boarding school (or braces) for the kids.

[John Coloccia]

My initial posting in this thread was simply to disagree with the notion that today's top work is vastly better ("blows away") the work of previous generations, and I still disagree with that premise:

That was me that said that.

I guess the question would be, what do you think our peak was? If we're not getting better, at some point we must have peaked and started declining. In most disciplines, practitioners at the top of their game are better than those that came before them. They learn from the masters, they have better tools and as I said they can stand on the shoulders of giants to see further than the last generation. If we're not better, where did we start our decline, or at least where did we start our flat line?

I hope you don't take this as being argumentative. I have a pretty open mind, especially about subjective things such as this, and I'm really interested in hearing where people think we've peaked.

[Frank Drew]

John,

Without arguing that today's best work isn't as good as what came before, what's true is that there just aren't as many practitioners of the hand crafts as there used to be, so the premise that any given knowledge and practice naturally continues to improve doesn't apply here, it's been shortcircuited, as it were. For example, is wheelwrighting as done today better than it was 100 years ago, when it was widely practiced? Horsedrawn coachbuilding?

But medicine, sports, electronics, aviation... those are all clearly better than they used to be because we've emphasized them, and rewarded those who do them well.

[george wilson]

Something that MIGHT be being overlooked is that there was great division of labor in the old days. Those incredible Boule inlaid tables and desks,and those chiseled guns were not made by one person. They were made by many specialists working in concert.

It was mentioned in a contemporary source that 29 people made a gun in London as a general course of things.There were very specialized workers,such as breeck plug forgers,for example,who did nothing else. There was even a "screwer together" who assembled parts,and possibly made the screws.

It was mentioned that a certain gunsmith, Durs Egg,was one of the very few in London(and to even BE in London, you had to be among the very best),who could make an entire gun BY HIMSELF "without hawking parts to every journeyman in town." This is very important to remember.

When a modern craftsman makes an object FROM SCRATCH,he has to make the entire thing by himself,like I did with my pistol. Thus,the modern craftsman actually is at the disadvantage,though he has the advantage educationally,of examining a lot of diverse work.

Boutet,Napoleon's favorite gunmaker,had a large staff of engravers,forgers,chiselers,etc. at his shop in the Louvre. He billed himself as the equivalent of "chief designer".

Grinnling Gibbons employed something like 80 carvers at one point. Maybe more at other times. I have read the Grinnling Gibbons book long ago,but cannot recall small details. He had a great deal of demand,and several major projects going on at once all of the time. Special carving tools were roughly forged out and handled in his shop as needed. Only the cutting ends were made accurately.

Yet,all of the work one can see in St. Pauls and other places is attributed to Grinnling Gibbons,when his hand may not actually have touched it,except to issue drawings.

Stradivarius had a staff of competent builders,too. He may have chosen the wood,and possibly done some final thicknessing. He did not make over 1200 violins by himself.He was known to have been a very rich man during his life.

Jose Ramirez the guitar maker does the same today.

I wish the reader would bear these things in mind when he reflects upon great and complex pieces of work from the past. No,there aren't as MANY great craftsmen,but I'll warrant there are a good number who are among the finest EVER at work today. I know some of them.

[Ben Rivenbark]

It's a false dillemma to say that we are either at our best now or have peaked some time in the past. Another option could be that we simply have plateaued. I have to wonder if the craftsman of today is any better than in the past or whether simply our tools, materials, and modern systems have made what may to some be an apparent difference in the end product. I feel that the craftsman himself is no better today, but perhaps advantaged by the vastly greater available resources.

Were we able to jump in the Delorean and take the best craftsman of today back to 1910 to go head to head with the finest craftsman of that time with both having the same tool set available, Im not sure who I would put my money on.

Ben

[george wilson]

It HAS BEEN SUGGESTED that the peak of craftsmanship was reached about 1680. That's what Wallace Gussler thinks. He was Master Gunsmith,then curator of furniture in Williamsburg. A largely self taught guy,but not stupid.

For what it's worth,I'm just tossing that in. In choosing the inlay style for my inlaid guitar,you might note that I chose 17th.C.. I do consider the 18th.C. as a more decadent period,and in the 19th.C,anything went,like today,a mishmash of styles thrown together. Except,I like 19th.C. tools the best. There are ALWAYS EXCEPTIONS.

I often wonder what kind of fools they hire to design factory furniture??

And yet,Wallace,as gunmaker believes the finest American longrifles were made in the 3rd quarter of the 18th.C.. well,that's a totally different subject,because we're talking AMERICAN,and they weren't made a lot earlier.

The quandary of today's craftsman is to be able to look back at all this great work,and pick and choose the best,and to have ENOUGH GOOD TASTE to be able to do it correctly.

I have to agree with Wallace about the 1680 date for many things,but you can just leave England out of that. We are talking continental Europe. England was always the last place culture ever reached. For example,Henry VIII had no armor makers,and really had his nose rubbed in it when the king of Austria sent him an incredibly elaborate suit of armor(still in the Tower of London),that even had spectacles on it! He imported a bunch of armor makers from Flanders and set them up in Greenwich to begin an armor making practice in England. This AT THE END of the age of armor,anyway.Queen Elizabeth's spinet was Italian. There were NO decent gunmakers in England until Hugenots,seeking safety,settled in England and continued making guns there.

They did build good ships,being an island nation,they had to. The French ships were better sailing ships. The English loaded theirs down with heavy guns and practiced learning to shoot more rapidly than anyone else. This served them well,until Jutland. The lighting was in their faces,though. At short range,though,they could out damage other ships,and the French ships were built lighter so as to sail better,and couldn't stand the damage.

By the 18th.C.,England had got pretty caught up,though continental styles still led the way.

[george wilson]

Frank,I have been unable to find any of your work in the woodworking projects section. I certainly would like to see some. Can you post some pictures?

[Jon van der Linden]

The quandary of today's craftsman is to be able to look back at all this great work,and pick and choose the best,and to have ENOUGH GOOD TASTE to be able to do it correctly.

George, you nailed it again. The resources available to anyone interested in making something or having something made are far greater than they have ever been. Having the knowledge to carefully select from those resources is limited by amount of knowledge one already has.

Overcoming technical problems is easy, it only needs to be solved once. The skill acquired through repetition can be learned. Design problems on the other hand require a depth of knowledge that is often lacking combined with judgement. This will take years of constant study to develop.

$ and judgement don't necessarily go together. The most common examples of really bad mistakes are seen in architecture where moldings and columns are applied incorrectly and inappropriately. Where I currently live in Palo Alto, all homes are over $1 million, and yet the new ones are often full of obvious errors. There are however some examples of stunning design and execution. The simple truth is that making millions in the software industry doesn't qualify anyone as a knowledgeable homebuyer, or arbiter of taste.

As for those that aren't impressed by modern work, have a look in the carving forum here sometime and check out Randall Rosenthal's work. Just pointing out that you really don't have to look far to see workmanship of the highest quality.

http://www.randallrosenthal.com/

[John Coloccia]

http://www.randallrosenthal.com/

Wow. I'm definitely on my way to hating Randy too! I've never seen anything like that. It makes me want to melt all my chisels down. Maybe I can make a nice cookie sheet out of A2.

[Frank Drew]

And for those who aren't impressed with older work (300+ years old in this case):

[Sean Hughto]

I guess the question would be, what do you think our peak was? If we're not getting better, at some point we must have peaked and started declining. In most disciplines, practitioners at the top of their game are better than those that came before them. They learn from the masters, they have better tools and as I said they can stand on the shoulders of giants to see further than the last generation. If we're not better, where did we start our decline, or at least where did we start our flat line?

I hope you don't take this as being argumentative. I have a pretty open mind, especially about subjective things such as this, and I'm really interested in hearing where people think we've peaked.

No offense, but this is a misguided question. When did sculpture peak - ancient Egypt? Ancient Greece? Michelangelo? How about painting? Was that Rembrandt? Picasso? Best music? Mozart? Beatles? With any art, each generation makes it's contributions - some is swill, some middlebrow, and some is masterful. The best of each generation endures because it is of such high quality that it stands with the best that came before and the best of what is to come. Every generation has great quality creations to offer. It's the nature of humanity to create. There is no ultimate peak - the tide keeps coming back to the quality high water mark.