Sideboard Design - End panel Design

[Tom Rash]

Hello all

I have plans for the Stickley Sideboard below except that it has side panels like the second sideboard below. The question I have is that the plans call for plywood and I would rather use solid wood. Would I have an issue with using frame and panel sides with a solid wood bottom and partitions? The other question would be how would I do the panels on the first sideboard? They are just solid wood panels, but how would they be attached to the legs? Which would be better with movement issues? Thanks

http://noriegafurniture.com/images/f...rand=511157474


https://www.finewoodworking.com/asse...p_view1_lg.jpg

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's the fundamental principle... Solid lumber expands and contracts across the grain, but not along the grain. Plywood does not expand or contract in either direction.

So if you have a joint between a part that doesn't change dimension (plywood or lumber along the grain), and a part that does change dimension (lumber across the grain), you must allow the changing part to change. That's generally done with a sliding joint.

On the cabinet from Fine Woodworking, the end panel is built as a frame-and-panel. The frame parts establish the dimensions of the panel, and because those dimensions are along the grain of the lumber, they don't change. The top's front-to-back dimension may change, because that is cross-grain on solid lumber. The connection from the top to the cabinet below it likely allows for that movement. If you were to use plywood for the end panel, but lumber for the top, you'd still need to have the same kind of connection between the top and the cabinet.

The cabinet from Noriega Furniture might have plywood end panels, or they might be solid lumber. The front-to-back stretchers are lumber, and so will not change in length. Plywood sides would avoid any worries about expansion. However, perhaps the builder has chosen to use solid lumber. If so there may be some stress on the panels because of expansion, but maybe he'll get away with it because the legs can flex a bit to accommodate it. I'm not saying that's "the right way" to do it, but you might get away with it.

[Scott T Smith]

[QUOTE=Jamie Buxton;1563289]Here's the fundamental principle... Solid lumber expands and contracts across the grain, but not along the grain. Plywood does not expand or contract in either direction.

QUOTE]

Let me add one thing to Jamie's comment. Across the grain, quartersawn wood expands and contracts at about 40% of the rate of flat sawn wood. Therefore, if you're using quartersawn in a panel you don't have to leave as much room around the panel (from side to side).

[Tom Rash]

If I was to build the sideboard of solid wood, which end panel would I use? Would the solid wood panel be preferable sine it would move at the same rate
Compared to the frame and panel which would not move as much? My question was more about not wanting to use plywood in the case. So if I had a solid wood bottom of the case, solid wood partitions, which end would work? I am thinking
The solid panel? Could I just dowel that in to the legs? Thanks for the replies

[G Douglas Fowler]

Tom, the solid panel end can be made to work without frame and panel construction if you build it using the panel as a full-length shoulderless tenon that floats into the mortised legs. This requires that you use internal framing to strengthen the construction since the you no longer have a rigid panel to hold the legs.

[Tom Rash]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tc8...page&q&f=false

Attached are the plans that I am going to use. In these plans the bottom is solid and the partitions are solid with a frame and panel end. My thoughts would be that the bottom would expand and contract and push the legs apart. Why would they make it like this? Or am I wrong? Sorry for the questions I just want to make sure that I make it correctly.

[Kent A Bathurst]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tc8...page&q&f=false

Attached are the plans that I am going to use. In these plans the bottom is solid and the partitions are solid with a frame and panel end. My thoughts would be that the bottom would expand and contract and push the legs apart. Why would they make it like this? Or am I wrong? Sorry for the questions I just want to make sure that I make it correctly.

Interesting - but for a different reason than you raised.

The top, bottom, and partitions are all solid wood, and are all glued together. As long as the partition grain is oriented in the same direction as the top + bottom, then [being the same species of wood] that entire assembly expands + contracts at the same rate. No problem there. As these move the legs, the legs all move together, and the frame-and-panel ends accomodate that movement. All copacetic.

The thing that has me scratching my head, though, is that the top is biscuited + glued to the side top rail. The bottom same thing to the side bottom rails. The shelf same thing to the side stretchers. Those rails and stretchers ain't gonna move [as Jamie noted], but the top, bottom, and shelf ARE gonna move. Same problem where the partitions are glued to the drawer frame/runners/kickers. Yikes.

I may be misinterpreting what I see in a quick glance - but I don't think I am - Pop Mechanics has this one wrong - wouldn't see that in a WW mag [I'd hope]. If I'm wide of the mark, hope someone will update my knowledge base, please.

I'd take the design elements you like, and change the construction techniques, quite honestly.

If I might make a suggestion: search for books by Robert W Lang [Cambuim Books is the publisher]. He has many, many A+C/Stickley designs, and the books are pretty inexpensive, compared to the cost of your QSWO - they have all the design info you'd need - ande enough projects to keep you out of trouble for a few years . A number of his items are also available in large-format detailed plans. I've used his stuff, own a number of his books and plans, and can recommend them.

This one has projects [no sideboards] but it starts with the details on wood, construction methods, etc. http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Drawings-...1128276&sr=1-1#_

THis one is the "more" version of the one above, so no construction info, but does have a sideboard.http://www.amazon.com/More-Shop-Draw...1128276&sr=1-4#_

[Bob Lang]

I agree with Kent, and projects like this were one of the motivating factors that led me to write my books on Craftsman furniture. In original examples of this type of piece the side panels would be solid with the grain running vertically. The panel would be in grooves in the top and bottom rails and in the legs. This would let the bottom sides and top all expand and contract in concert. The top would be connected to the case with screws through figure-8 fasteners.

I think the author of the Popular Mechanics article went biscuit crazy with this. If you made it like that out of quartersawn white oak it might not move enough side to side to cause any problems, but with other woods, it could be an issue. I would never glue a solid wood top down to a cross-grain rail, or to plywood. Given the quality of plywood today, I would use solid wood throughout.

Just a bit of clarification, a very similar piece, the Gus Stickley 814 sideboard is in "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Furniture". The table of contents for both books Kent mentioned is on my website; there are chapters on construction methods in both. The numbers are the original Stickley catalog numbers if you want to cross reference. If you browse through the "Plans" pages on my site you can find illustrations of the Stickley 814 and some other similar sideboards.

Bob Lang

[Tom Rash]

Thanks for the tips. I just ordered your book from Amazon so hopefully that will shed some light on this. I was planning on making this from cherry so it would have more movement then the QSWO. I thought that using biscuits on the top was incorrect as it would not allow for any movement because of the top rails. I really want to make the bottom and partitions from solids and not ply so I just want to make sure that it stays together for the long term.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I agree with Kent, and projects like this were one of the motivating factors that led me to write my books on Craftsman furniture.........

Just a bit of clarification, a very similar piece, the Gus Stickley 814 sideboard is in "Shop Drawings for Craftsman Furniture"......

And well-written they are. I have some beautiful [if I do say so myself] pieces of Stickley + Ellis repros in the house - all guided by you.

Sorry I missed the sideboard in the first book. Ooops.

Last - Bob - you ever think about doing a book on Mackintosh? I just got the latest Roger Billcliffe edition [$$ yikes - couldn't resist - it is marvelous, tho], and I'll likely take a shot on a couple, but your quality of info would certainly be comforting.

Kent

[Rob Fisher]

...Bob - you ever think about doing a book on Mackintosh? I just got the latest Roger Billcliffe edition [$$ yikes - couldn't resist - it is marvelous, tho], and I'll likely take a shot on a couple, but your quality of info would certainly be comforting.

Kent

I will second Kent's request for a Mackintosh book. PUHLEESE!!!!!!

Rob