Is this a Keen Kutter #4, did they ever produce a #4?

[John Fabre]

I inherited this and don't know nothing about it. Is this a Keen Kutter #4, did they ever produce a #4? I have this listed for sale, but I had alot of PM's asking if this is a K4 or K44. What would this be worth selling for, looks like it needs work.

[Mike Henderson]

Keen Kutter did produce a #4, but it would have been labeled as a K4 or a KK4. The K4 had a ramped frog mounting like the early Bedrocks. The KK4 had a flat frog mount like the Stanley Baileys.

So, by buying a K4 you're getting the same thing as an early 604 Bedrock (a round side Bedrock, not the flat top side Bedrock). And the Keen Kutters are usually less expensive than the Bedrocks. The Winchester and the 700 and 900 series Vaughan Bushnells are the same. But early 604 Bedrocks aren't too expensive right now.

Take a look at the frog mounting on yours and you can tell which it is.

The K4 is more valuable than the KK4.

Mike

You may have a Stanley with a Keen Kutter lever cap.

[John Fabre]

Thanks Mike, is this the ramped frog mounting in the pictures you are talking about? Even though it is marked a No 4, it still could be a K4 or KK4?

[Mike Henderson]

No, that's a Stanley Bailey frog mounting. I really think you have a Stanley plane with a Keen Kutter lever cap. If it was a Keen Kutter, it would be marked with a K (or KK) on one side of the knob and the number "4" on the other side. The fact that it has "No" on one side of the knob indicates to me it's a Stanley.

There are some experts on planes who post on this forum so I'm asking for them to chime in and give their opinion. I never heard of a Keen Kutter metal body bench plane that didn't have K or KK on it but maybe someone else will know better.

[update: How is the blade marked? Does it say "Keen Kutter" or Stanley?]

Mike

Go on eBay and search on "keen kutter plane" and you'll see some Keen Kutter planes and how they're marked.

[Jim Koepke]

One of the images in the first post indicate it is a Keen Kutter blade.

That could be a Stanley plane made under contract. It has a twist in the lateral lever like a Union Mfg. plane would have. I think some Stanley planes have this.

I bought half a plane at a yard sale that had a Keen Kutter blade that is tapered. Not a bad blade and a bunch of other parts for 25¢.

jtk

[John Fabre]

I tried taken a picture of the upper part of the blade, it didn't turn out. It does have the words Keen Kutter on it.

[Mike Henderson]

I think you can safely say it is not a K4. It could be a KK4. I'm sorry to say a KK4 would not be considered especially valuable.

Mike

[John Fabre]

I think it would be better to it part out. Here's a picture I found of a K4.
Thanks Mike and Jim.

[Jeremy Dorn]

This particular guy is neither a K4 or a KK4. The K4's were originally made by Stanley, and rebranded for Keen Kutter using the round side Bedrock design very early on in the 1900's (for just a few years if I recall right). They all will have the ramped frog shown in the last post.

KK4's were if I recall made by the Ohio plane making company, and rebranded. Their frogs will not have the raised ridge like your's has. Instead it will be flat, with 2 small recessed lines where the screw holes are. This is consistent with what you find on an early Stanley in the Type 6ish age.

What you have there is a later era Keen Kutter plane, (not sure of the actual manufactuer) that was made in the period after Ohio and Stanley stopped making planes for sale at the hardware store's that sold Keen Kutter (EC Simmonds if I recall right). The frog you have is closer to what you'd find on a Type 9 stanely, ie raised ridge to keep the frog from shifting left to right, but no frog adjusting screw.

This particular type of Keen Kutter unforunately is not sought after like the single K bedrock style planes, and I'd expect to at best see a $20-30 sale price. You can look out on ebay for price help, but I think you'll see that the Keen Kutters with that particular body style don't really do well unless they are in pristine shape.

I've got a buddy who's a Keen Kutter plane collector and have seen many a K, and KK over the last couple years

JD

[David Weaver]

Agree with jeremy. I have a KK4. The bed of the casting has a bunch of raised points to meet a flat frog. It's not an especially good design (actually, i think it's the worst I've seen on an older top line bench plane).

That looks like a stanley plane, or one of the other clones that used the bailey frog design pretty closely.

[John Fabre]

Thanks guys, I have no clue when it comes to hand planes.

[Greg Wease]

Here's some info from Alvin Sellens book on Keen Kutter planes. In 1940, E. C. Simmons Hardware was sold to Shapleigh Hardware and Shapleigh began selling old Simmons stock of planes made by Stanley. They started producing #4 and #5 planes marked like yours after WWII, apparently still made by Stanley. Per Sellens: "These planes are quite scarce and command a slightly higher price than the later Shapleigh KK planes of similar size." In the 1950's the Keen Kutter planes were made by Sargent. I couldn't say what a "slightly higher price" might be.

[Jim Koepke]

Here's some info from Alvin Sellens book on Keen Kutter planes. In 1940, E. C. Simmons Hardware was sold to Shapleigh Hardware and Shapleigh began selling old Simmons stock of planes made by Stanley. They started producing #4 and #5 planes marked like yours after WWII, apparently still made by Stanley. Per Sellens: "These planes are quite scarce and command a slightly higher price than the later Shapleigh KK planes of similar size." In the 1950's the Keen Kutter planes were made by Sargent. I couldn't say what a "slightly higher price" might be.

Greg,
Any information on the wording above the Keen Kutter logo on the blade?

I think on my blade it has E C Simmons. Just curious if Shapleigh may have put their name there.

jtk

[Greg Wease]

Again per Sellens, "E. C. Simmons" appeared above the Keen Kutter wedge logo for some time after being acquired by Shapleigh. "Shapleigh's" appeared above the Keen Kutter logo "sometime between 1945 and 1951". Guess it made more sense to continue using the former owner's name until all old stock was used up.

[John Fabre]

I just read "E. C. Simmons" above Keen Kutter on the blade, very small writing.