Which oil varnish is best for brushing?

[george wilson]

For many years I have sprayed nitrocellulose lacquer on my guitars,or French polished them.

I decided to varnish the one I am completing now. Sherwin Williams USED TO have a great oil based NON POLYURETHANE varnish that we could thin with mineral spirits,and brush on so smooth you'd think it was sprayed.

I went last week and got a can of their current interior oil base varnish. It is horrible!!! It has a consistency like melted Gummy Bears. I don't know how else to describe it. You CAN't brush it on smooth,nor can you thin it out to do better. It piles up,and does NOT settle out smoothly at all.

I need an oil base varnish that can be RUBBED. you can't rub polyurethanes,because they always "gas" between layers. When you rub through their layers,you get a "topographic" looking map of the layering,called "gassing".

Has anyone had definite experience with a GLOSS varnish that goes on smooth,and can be rubbed out to a piano finish? Now that I've started with varnish,I can't go to lacquer. I hate to keep wasting over $15.00 per can for BAD VARNISH. I don't want to use Spar,as it is too yellow.

[Sean Hughto]

I'm no finishing expert, but I love Pratt & Lambert 38:

http://www.prattandlambert.com/produ...loss/index.jsp

[Casey Gooding]

I haven't used it, but I've also heard good things about the P&L varnish.

[Frank Drew]

George,

I agree with Sean; I haven't used all that many varnishes, but the best results I've had, by far, were with Pratt & Lambert (I think it was 38). Dries bright and hard, and polishes out very nicely. I'd like to think that they've kept the quality the same since I last used it some years ago.

[David Dalzell]

I have used both Pratt & Lambert 38 and Behlens Rock Hard finishes, Both gave excellent results. The important difference is that P&L 38 give a very clear (Neutral coloring) while Behlens Rock Hard give some darker coloration to the wood.

[Ernie Miller]

+1 on Pratt & Lambert 38 - great stuff, but it's getting hard to find.

[Tim Sgrazzutti]

I've put a lot of Epifanes and Sikkens varnish on boat brightwork -- both are excellent products. Neither are hard and brittle like spar varnish. If I had to pick, I'd say Epifanes would get the nod for clarity.

[Frank Drew]

I've put a lot of Epifanes and Sikkens varnish on boat brightwork -- both are excellent products. Neither are hard and brittle like spar varnish. If I had to pick, I'd say Epifanes would get the nod for clarity.

Most exterior varnishes are long oil varnishes, and don't get as hard as short oil varnishes; I believe George wants to rub out (polish) his varnish to a bright finish, so needs one that dries hard and crisp.

[george wilson]

Yes,I will sand the finish out with 600 wet or dry and soapy water,and rub it to a high gloss with rubbing compound.

I don't mean to poo-poo your advice,but I have used Pratt & Lambert 38. It is not at all an interesting looking varnish. It has no depth to it,and looks cold. Behlen's "rock hard" varnish does not get very hard at all. I spoke with a chemist at Behlen,when I used to communicate regularly with them. He told me the varnish didn't get hard,it was given the name because it is alcohol resistant. I did try their rock hard varnish years ago.

You all are probably getting aggravated by my response,but these are my actual experiences with those products.

I would appreciate any further suggestions,though,ESPECIALLY products I could find LOCALLY. I want to get this guitar done, by Christmas if possible. That is just a goal I have set for myself.

I did make varnish for several years,but that was a long time ago,my equipment for it is scattered,and I don't want to get involved in any experiments that might craze or cause the guitar to come back.

I will mention that Tru-Oil is a beautiful finish. However,I had,years ago,finished a violin with it. MONTHS later,when I strung the violin up,after a time I saw that the feet of the bridge had sunk clear down to the bare wood !! Little dried spurts of Tru-Oil were around the feet of the bridge!! That violin was only strung MONTHS after the Tru-Oil was put on. Therefore,I'm afraid that the Tru-Oil might take a print from the fabric in a guitar case.

[Sean Hughto]

Why not get your "depth" and "interest" from some dewaxed shellac in amber or garnet or clear or any mix you want. Then add the P&L 38 as simple a polishable protective top coat? I typically have used my P&L varnish mixed with pure tung oil. It didn't lack for depth or interest or warmth, but perhaps would be unsuitable for an instrument with more oil added.

And, George, with the internet, anything can be delivered. Can't get much more local than your front door.

[george wilson]

Internet? What's that??

Actually,I think what I need to do is go to the store and open some varnish,and SEE if it has the gooey consistency of the SW I tried.

I SHOULD have just used my usual lacquer,but the unpredictable and cold weather was not being suitable. I had a rosewood guitar pop wide open back in the 60's when I took it out in too cold weather to spray it. Wish I had a spray booth.

[george wilson]

Sean and Frank,is there a GLOSS version of P&L 38? I have only seen it in flat,which Williamsburg kept in their main warehouse. The flattening agent may be adding some opacity. Maybe the gloss,if there is one,would be better.

[Ernie Miller]

Sean and Frank,is there a GLOSS version of P&L 38? I have only seen it in flat,which Williamsburg kept in their main warehouse. The flattening agent may be adding some opacity. Maybe the gloss,if there is one,would be better.

George,

Yes, there is a gloss version. I usually mix 70% satin with 30% gloss as a final coat. I've never used the flat version.

Ernie

[Steve Schoene]

Waterlox Gloss is another to consider. Much higher solids content than the Original/Sealer which is made for wiping, but quite brushable.

I do still miss Behlen's 4-hour Rubbing Varnish.

My google search for rubbing varnish revealed an interesting catalog item
http://www.farwestpaint.com/Catalog/AA1546.htm It's a gov't spec. rubbing varnish. I've not used it, nor do I know if one could buy less than a 55gal. drum.

[george wilson]

I have a can of OLD Luigi Nicoseco violin oil varnish from the 60's !! Maybe I'll open it and see if it still hardens o.k.. I used to use it a lot,but in the early 70's they changed the formulation9and lied about it). It became LAVENDER colored when viewed in a bottle(not in the thin layers on an instrument). Finally,I made them admit that they had changed the formula. They said they couldn't get the resins from Africa anymore. I quit using it.

One reason I don't want to make the varnish is that I don't think I can get GENUINE turpentine any more. It started to get harder to get even in the 70's. The stuff you get now is distilled out of ground up stumps. It smells oiler than the real turps"from the living pine"(which it used to say on cans of the REAL stuff. You can't make turpene resins from it,etc..I also used to use EDIBLE linseed oil,which is much clearer than hardware stuff. Not adulterated with driers,metals,etc.. Now,it costs a bunch just for a small bottle of it.

DON't try to put edible linseed oil on a project. It won't dry until it is polymerized. This is a dangerous process only done out of doors.