Problems with Deft

[Mark R Webster]

I have been away from woodworking for nearly 20 years and have recently gotten back into some projects. I used to spray Deft on most of my furniture, spraying at about 40 lbs and thinning about 20% with lacquer thinner. I am still using a conventional siphon feed Binks gun. I recently sprayed a project with Deft and had problems with orange peel. The formulation is apparently different due to regulations (California) which I am sure is affecting my results. Any suggestions for an alternative non brushing lacquer? I have always used Deft over standard lacquer because it produced a softer finish less prone to whitening when hit. Is there something out there now that flows well when spraying and has the less brittle, softer characteristics of Deft? Or any suggestions on working with Deft as formulated now?
Mark

[Roy Lindberry]

I have been away from woodworking for nearly 20 years and have recently gotten back into some projects. I used to spray Deft on most of my furniture, spraying at about 40 lbs and thinning about 20% with lacquer thinner. I am still using a conventional siphon feed Binks gun. I recently sprayed a project with Deft and had problems with orange peel. The formulation is apparently different due to regulations (California) which I am sure is affecting my results. Any suggestions for an alternative non brushing lacquer? I have always used Deft over standard lacquer because it produced a softer finish less prone to whitening when hit. Is there something out there now that flows well when spraying and has the less brittle, softer characteristics of Deft? Or any suggestions on working with Deft as formulated now?
Mark

Working in a furniture shop, we sprayed everything with pre catalyzed lacquer which is available in different sheens. We have used different products over the years, but currently are using Rhodda. Sherwin Williams has a good lacquer, but it is much more expensive.

Generally, we thin with about 10 parts lacquer and 1 part thinner and spray at between 60-80 lbs. For some reason the guns seem to behave differently from day to day (perhaps temperature and humidity?) so I have sprayed at various pressures.

[del schisler]

i use M.L.Camplell brand pre catalyzed lacquer which is available in different sheens . Cost more than the box store's . But it is well worth it. Sherwin williams own's the M.L.Campbell but they have their own mix that they use. I would go to a sherwin williams store and go with their brand. I use a HVLP unit and spray with 30 lb's most of the time. Get good result's. I used to use deft lacquer back in the 60's . What i found it was a soft finish so i stop using it. Good luck

[Henry Ambrose]

I just did a project with Deft and had good results as usual. This may well be a California specific problem. Wish I could tell you more.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks guys for the responses. Does anyone know why Deft is a softer finish? ... Del and Roy what are the main reasons you are using catalyzed, does it have anything to do with application or is durability, lack of yellowing?

[Roy Lindberry]

Thanks guys for the responses. Does anyone know why Deft is a softer finish? ... Del and Roy what are the main reasons you are using catalyzed, does it have anything to do with application or is durability, lack of yellowing?

Quite honestly, I don't know why we used it. It's what the owner of the shop used when I went to work for him, and through all the years I was there, that's pretty much all we used.

Sorry I can't be more help in the "why" area.

[Mark R Webster]

Thanks Roy for the response.
Still wondering about what makes Deft a softer finish. I suppose I like the softness mainly because it is less prone to the whitening affect of NC lac when hit. As I read it seems the catalyzed is more durable (less prone to fracture effect) and stays white. Does that sound about right? (anyone). Does it have similar spray characteristics to standard NCL or Deft, big learning curve? Should I be looking at WB products?

[Howard Acheson]

Thanks guys for the responses. Does anyone know why Deft is a softer finish? ... Del and Roy what are the main reasons you are using catalyzed, does it have anything to do with application or is durability, lack of yellowing?

Catalyzed lacquer is much more durable and water resistant than NC lacquer. It exceeds the damage resistance of poly varnishes and is used on almost all kitchen applications.

However, it can be dangerous to the applicator. Be sure and get a copy of the Material Safety Data Sheet for the manufacturer you use.

[Mark R Webster]

Hi Howard, thanks for your info. So.. if I switched to using Catalyzed Lac (carefully) should I be considering a HVLP gun? I currently have a 25 yo syphon Binks set up to spray NC Lac at about 50% thinned. If I am used to spraying NCL are their any supprises/technique cautions?

[Phil Phelps]

Hi Howard, thanks for your info. So.. if I switched to using Catalyzed Lac (carefully) should I be considering a HVLP gun? I currently have a 25 yo syphon Binks set up to spray NC Lac at about 50% thinned. If I am used to spraying NCL are their any supprises/technique cautions?

Hey Mark. I've been spraying lacquer since mid last century. Your Binks gun will spray all the solvents you want just fine. The HVLP will lay down more material with less air and create less fog. A little learning curve and you'll really like it. Buy a good HVLP. I wouldn't waste my money on these cheapo's. You can get a good conversion HVLP at a reputable paint store. I have been thinning lacquer at 50% forever. For orange peel, reduce your pressure and thin your product. Lay down wet, overlapping coats, don't flood.

[Jeff Jewitt]

With a nitrocellulose based finish like Deft, the "softness" as compared to another NC lacquer is more than likely due to the way it's formulated. You can control the brittleness and flexibility by changing the plasticizer, one of the modifying resins or both.
Nitrocellulose by itself is a very brittle resin and is always modified with chemical plasticizers (the dreaded phthalates) or oils like castor oil. It's been a while since I looked at Deft ingredients, but I do remember it had a coconut-oil alkyd based non-oxidizing platicizer/resin in it. This plasticizer is also found in the "stringed instrument lacquers" which need to be highly flexible but hard enough to polish to gloss.

Also since Deft is designed for brushing there would be a a fair amount of a slow-evaporating solvent in it which would keep it softer initially as compared to a spray-only NC lacquer during the first 1-3 weeks of drying.

[Mark R Webster]

Great responses Phil and Jeff.
Very helpful. Thanks
Mark

[Howard Acheson]

Hi Howard, thanks for your info. So.. if I switched to using Catalyzed Lac (carefully) should I be considering a HVLP gun? I currently have a 25 yo syphon Binks set up to spray NC Lac at about 50% thinned. If I am used to spraying NCL are their any supprises/technique cautions?

The first thing you need if you plan to spray two part lacquer is a good spray booth and proper personal protection. A respirator and proper protective clothing are required. A couple of shops I know of require their finishers to use forced fresh air respirators.

I personally would not use a two part lacquer inside any space that was attached to a dwelling.

All that said, two part lacquers can be sprayed with high pressure guns or with HVLP guns. Non-turbine (conversion) guns are my strong preference if I ever decided to get back into spray finishing.

[Mark R Webster]

OK then...
Maybe I should stick to non catalyzed.... I am working out of a 20 by 20 attached garage, dedicated to woodshop function, typical garage door, no spray booth and I am not very good about consistently using protective gear (at least to date). Realistically the stuff I do probably doesn't need a really tough finish. Deft has been fine for anything I have made and has held up well enough. I suppose the yellowing could be/has been an issue, but I mostly work with the brown toned woods, cherry, walnut, etc. I suppose I just need to play with the "newer" Deft some more or look for similar product with a similar plasticizer. Anybody know of one they like?
Thanks Howie
Mark